Your crash course on the Indian economy | Make Me Smart #116 | Anu Anand

thanks for watching this episode of make me smart don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel marketplace APM and obviously smash that like button you say like it's a threat smash it smash it smash don't like questions or else I will come through this webcam I'll come at you like a spider this is of course make me smart it's our podcast that's the thing we do it is it's our podcast where every week we just come together we try to connect the dots on tech and economics and sometimes a little culture and of course you help us do it because as we like to say none of us is as smart as all of us we are going well outside our area of expertise today we're gonna get International Economics today we're gonna do India its economy its elections technology they're they just had elections like like you know what a week 10 days ago 900 million people were eligible to vote hello Prime Minister Narendra Modi was reelected in in a in a overwhelming fashion it's a huge ally of yours it's the biggest democracy in the world it's over there in that part of the world where oh by the way China is and so that's an issue but it is not an economy that is untroubled right it's grown really fast but jobs an education or an issue on employments really high there's lots going on over there yeah and then of course we our administration may have troubled that economy a little bit more president Trump announced he's ending special trade status for India starting this week so that affects billions of dollars of Indian goods that are coming into the u.s. duty-free and then of course there's my my beat the tech side of things which encompasses a whole bunch of topics in India not least of which is of course that India has long provided tech talent customer service lots of start-up CEOs in the United States and Silicon Valley and then of course as a market it is a Moritz it's long been coveted because of those 900 million people that I mentioned and also as that kind of Chinese curtain slams down it's a pretty crucial player for lots of these American companies who are hoping to grow so so that's why we care and on top of that like not only is it super interesting and relevant we have like the best expert to talk to our BBC colleague Anya Anand she's based in London she hosts our first newscast of the market-place Morning Report and she just finished a reporting trip to India where she also lived and worked in the past and she's gonna tell us what is what hey Anu hey Molly so how long were you on the ground over there was like ten days two weeks right so we were there for about two weeks but you know I've spent about gosh a large chunk of the last twenty years going to and from India living in India lived there for six years in a row but lived there before that so I was there before it opened up to the rest of the world economically I've been there through all the crazy changes and yeah this election was fascinating what set that up for us for people who weren't necessarily following it why was it fascinating what were the stakes so Molly you you guys have sort of you know set it up India is a huge market just to give you an idea it's a third the size of the US in terms of the space but with three times the people right so you've got cheek-by-jowl the world's wealthiest people the world's poorest people you've got some of the smartest people in the world like you're saying you know Silicon Valley is filled with some of the most highly educated innovative Indians but you've also got you know this vast population of semi-literate illiterate people who work for like a dollar two dollars a day and the rate of change has just been extraordinary I mean my grandparents lived through India becoming independent my parents live through the 60s and 70s where India was trying to establish its identity and its economic identity and I've gone back and forth to India since the late 1990s when finally it opened up to the rest of the world so it went from a place where there were one or two kinds of cars all Indian made there were you know the state controlled the government controlled telephone lines so you had to wait eight months before you could get one it controlled utilities when I first moved to India in 96 I couldn't get a telephone line you know I had to buy a gas cylinder to do my cooking on the black market so everything was state controlled and consumer goods I mean I remember wandering into you know shops where you might find one packet of cookies or you know from from outside of India or maybe some super glue or maybe a thing of deodorant you know it was a very different place right and I remember in 1997 in Delhi when you know the first Italian restaurant opened could suddenly you know Italian meats and cheeses could come in and of course today I mean you know India Delhi I mean it's bursting with international brands it's bursting with companies so the rate of change just over the last 20 years has been extraordinary and then the political change in this election Narendra Modi is kind of the culmination of both an economic aspiration but also a Hindu identity aspiration you know my my grandfather on my mom's side was kind of part of that movement he was a very proud Hindu he was very passionate about cow protection and there was this sense that all those leaders that had brought India to independence you know they were Patriots but they didn't represent Indians they were pretty elite they've been educated in foreign countries and said Narendra Modi is a very different kind of leader and in this election not only you know not only did he win last time and that was pretty unprecedented but this time the scale of the wind seems to cement you know the fact that people want economic reform we can talk more about that they want different kinds of economic reform depends on who you ask but also they want to assert this identity that we are a nation that is majority Hindu that we have that identity it's a key part of our identity so there's all these interesting economic and identity issues and and yeah I think people were pretty surprised not that he won but by the scale of his victory and I think that tells you a lot as well about you know his strengths and and perceived weaknesses as well so give us the economic snapshot then right it's it's a growing economy but with some cracks and fissures if you will oh yeah yeah absolutely chi I mean it's you know 1.3 billion people you know that the tech sector used to represent about 2 percent of the economy now it's maybe 7 percent so you know when you see those headlines about India's growing economy what you're looking at is a very small slice of the pie if you look at the country as a whole you've got 1 million people coming of age every month so over a year you're talking about 8 million new jobs that you need 8 million new jobs just to absorb the incoming workforce 80% of the workforce is in what we call the informal sector so there's no contracts there's no minimum wage no protections that go along with it these are agricultural laborers domestic workers you know people who don't exist on paper so you know they're they're dealing with their own kinds of problems and then you've had that 20 percent that's in the formal sector you know the ones that are in you know registered legal companies with contracts and all that unemployment in that part of the economy according to leaked government data hit the worst that's been in 45 years between 2016 and 2017 so you know it's a growing economy it's grown at six to seven percent although just recently growth hit a paltry five point eight percent officially some would say it may be lower you know but India is a big country so it needs that massive growth just absorb its population so you've you know you've got a prime minister who said I'm gonna create jobs I'm gonna bring in reforms he's had a mixed record he's done some really amazing things and some things have gone very badly but the main problem in India is the population the need for jobs the need for education and then you've got a global slowdown as well so there's a mix of global and domestic problems going on Wow well let's talk this is self-serving but let's talk about the tech industry as a potential driver of that growth because because India has a very interesting relationship as do lots of parts of the world with American tech companies in particular I mean I remember when Facebook several years ago around 2013 or so was was wanting to roll out its kind of internet for developing countries where it said look we'll go in and we'll provide this Facebook service and we'll choose these sites and it'll be a few different sites all operated by means booked and India asserted net neutrality and absolutely absolutely not right and and that was like this bellwether for how India has really approached these companies which is much like the EU you're not going to come in here and take over no matter what economic opportunity you might represent yeah and I think the tech sector is interesting because it represents that push and pull between India wanting to open up wanting to engage with the rest of the world wanting to grow wanting foreign direct investment from you know big outside companies but also needing to protect its turf it's a developing country there are a lot of poor people there's a lot of developing industry I will say this Molly I hate to burst your bubble but Tech is not really a driver of jobs in India you know because it's so small it requires a very educated you know workforce an education opportunity is so poor in India still so so tech is not it's not it's not gonna be a driver of jobs that the the sectors that drive jobs are really labor intensive so construction agriculture you know textiles but you have hit out something there and that you know India wants to harness that growing tech sector to its own advantage so in a funny kind of way right now you know you've got a draft legislation on e-commerce for example right so India kind of you know welcomed Walmart into do deal with Flipkart they've become joint venture partners that's great because it brings all this investment into India but then they've been you know going well hang on a second we've got all this data you know we need to rewrite the rules of data we need to keep this data local we need to monetize the data they've had to separate out the platform which is obviously you know what the tech sector from America say brings in and is good at from the actual selling of stuff because that affects a lot of Indian retailers a lot of small shops a lot of you know the backbone of both India's electorate and its economy so you've you've got to bring in the tech platform because you want that you want that technology that you know that expertise but you don't want to undercut with these huge discounts that the likes of Walmart and Amazon have you know all of these smaller retailers and companies who are going wait a minute we don't have that advantage we're still you know in a developing economy so there's this real trying to work out how you kind of make the best of both the outside money in the competition while trying to benefit Indian businesses Indian consumers so Tek is interesting and it's evolving and so it will be interesting to see where things go in this next administration a lot of Indian tech entrepreneurs are saying we should be more like China China didn't let in any competition China you know China protected its turf and look where China is so again you know Ruby Tuesday Apple to be able to and now India might close the doors to but let's keep going with the China thing right because if you take this let's set political systems aside here for just a second right and talk about velocity of development size of the population which lends itself to potential for economic growth are there parallels to be drawn between what has happened in China I'm not saying China's you know all that but it's made amazing strides in the last generation are there parallels to be drawn with India well I think there's a real debate within India on the one hand there's a real pride that this is the world's largest democracy that it holds a peaceful election 900 million eligible voters can have their say you know so that's wonderful but there is also this undercurrent of envy that China is able to make decisions from the top down and it can tackle really difficult you know in in a really organized way right and so I think the appeal of Prime Minister Modi has partly been this image that he is a bit of a strong man you know that that he is individually powerful enough and charismatic enough as a leader to sort of tame the wild Indian political system you know someone once said that India needs a treaty with itself because you know before 1947 before it got independence India was a collection of princely states and you know all these small communities I mean you know the British sort of gave it some order but it's got 16 languages it's got so many different religions and identities and so you know there's this that both this sort of celebration of that diversity but also this yearning that somebody needs to come and put you know some kind of order to this so China yeah China said China's they both admire China but they also sort of go well well at least we're a democracy you know and I think there's a real conflict going on there about which bits of China to emulate you know what's interesting just on the whole Modi charismatic you know inspirational aspirational leader they're saying the same thing about President Xi in China right and and now he's effectively president for life just saying yeah I mean you know yeah I mean I do think I think the parallel the only parallel there is that I think people worry now about how much Prime Minister Modi is going to be tempered by what if whatever is left of the opposition and when I say tempered I mean you know things like you know religious violence and that has gone up since 2014 he's been largely silent about that and you know you can argue that on many different levels moral levels social levels but economic levels as well so again how much is he going to you know how aggressive is he going to be with the economic reform there are there signs that he's gonna go a little bit more slowly because you know it's complicated to change things as we saw with things like D monetization where he withdrew 80% of the currency and it was supposed to cure corruption in fact it lowered growth and got rid of loads of jobs you know so he's gonna take it slow and then on things onto on the social front you know are are his are the worst sides of that Hindu nationalism going to come to the fore or you know are we gonna see are we gonna see more moderation on more reconciliation it's a big open question yeah well on the social front to I want to ask you about women which is one of the stories you did for us about how women hold the key really to that economic growth but of course the societal structure is not set up for women to prosper to be educated to get these jobs and to contribute to ultimately a strong economy what are Modi's views on that so he hasn't been very very vocal necessarily on the issue of women I mean I think generally in India the political classes agree that you know safety of women has been kind of a big big issue nationally and in lots of different towns and cities and states so I don't think he's against that certainly and and when we talk about women or what really when we talk about anything in India you know it's so complicated Mali I mean if you go to you know South Delhi their bruh hoods or you know the center of Mumbai where everybody's educated english-speaking relatively well-off you know you're talking about a whole different set of people than when you talk about women who are doing unpaid labor on farms have no freedoms you know don't get an education don't get fed in the same way you know so we're talking about very different India's but you know the point is that three-quarters of the population is rural you know and that includes a lot of women who are not getting access to education and in a tough economy they also aren't getting the jobs because you know the men are going to be the first to go and look for jobs some people say that if women participated in the economy and India has a very low participation female employment you know India has a very low participation rate when it comes to women in the economy that GDP could increase by double digits but again the same barriers apply education we did a story about women just next door to Delhi just a few miles from where Google and all these big international companies have these gleaming new headquarters and it's it's pretty medieval the women wake up at the crack of dawn they look after the cattle they do all the cooking they do all the cleaning and they do not move out of the house without someone shepherding them and without permission and the whole family has to get involved you know and so we were looking at a vocational training school that has been doing years of work in these communities just to say hey look trust us we're run by women your your daughter's your sisters your mother's we'll be safe let them learn a skill let them work and it was really interesting because most of the facility was empty because they're still trying to convince everyone and even after these women successfully complete this a year-long training they get a placement and the family say oh no no no you can't you can't go out and work you know that no you can't do that it's unsafe it's not right women shouldn't be out mingling with you know strangers and so you know it's it's mixed progress some of them then open their own shops you know but not everyone has the means to do that so yeah women the participation rate for women definitely needs to go up one thing you really notice and Ellie is there are no women running shops there very few women driving ubers or buses and it you know I had two people say to me I just had a female Eber driver and it's like we're like you know we're like sharing this news on what's up like Oh somebody get her number can we talk to her you know because you want to know well how did she how did she do that you know what barriers did she have to overcome so I think with more the I mean he's certainly I think wants to kind of lift everyone up and including women but it hasn't necessarily done anything specifically on that but I do think that's an evolving area that you know I think most political classes in India are trying to to address that that gender gap so he's got a five-year term right yeah okay so in five years just as a way to wrap things up here in five years where are we gonna be Wow well that's as I say it's a big open question I'll tell you what he needs to do in five years he needs to drive more foreign investment because that growth is slowing and in order to do that he needs a lot of labor reform land reform legal reform he has he has introduced bankruptcy reform and that's good he has rationalized taxes before you know if you were moving goods from one state to another in India you would be stopped at every state border you would spend hours filling out paperwork paying taxes to different states and he's made that one kind of national system he's gonna have to try and offer some relief to farmers they want better credit they're struggling with debt they want minimum price guarantees he's gonna need to narrow the budget deficit which is 3.4 percent and he's got a boost domestic consumption and you know all of this is hard in a country of 1.3 billion people I mean you know it's not it's not just him it would be hard for anyone so he's got to navigate all of that and it really matters it really really matters because unlike a developed country where you know everybody's got clean water everyone's got electricity everyone has a crack at some kind of public education India's gotta have that tax revenue that income to fix some of these ground-level problems Kyle leave you with one thing you know because we looked at a lot of education as well and this this just everything to me in India comes back to education India spends 3 percent of its GDP on education on public education and there's a real debate about whether education should be publicly funded or whether the private sector should move in and you know I always think about South Korea in the 1950s India and South Korea kind of started off around the same demographics the same national income the same problem same same structural issues South Korea spent a lot more on health care and education and India didn't and you can see where you end up when you do that so I think another thing that's just not being spoken about is he's got to boost education spending not just on primary education but on creating thousands of new universities thousands of technical colleges vocational education all of that and it's and and it's really going to take a couple of generations for that to kick in and for all of these different strands of the Indian economy and all different challenges to bear fruit and and to become a China you know cuz there isn't that authoritarian president she kind of just going alright we're gonna do this we're gonna do it like right now right on Iran and host the marketplace morning report from the BBC World Service all the stories from her India reporting trip are on our website marketplace not org honor that was fascinating thank you thanks Molly thank sky thanks Anna we'll talk to you soon hmm there you go yeah I know I don't think she was trying to argue for president for life but know yourself the scale of the problems right yeah scale of the problems are enormous yeah are enormous yeah and she said that laundry list I wouldn't want that laundry list yeah yeah totally yeah we're just gonna have a little like on her love fest so good at that stuff we were slacking or slacking while she was talking we were slacking not that we were paying attention but we were like it so let us know actually what you think about India and and what you know why do you think it matters because I think it pier CLE it does right she's made that case but I'd be curious to see what people think you know well it is one of those countries that matters a whole lot and we just don't talk just don't talk about it just you know and it's so interesting and I yeah it's just fascinating so please tell us your thoughts yeah we host all right so speaking of which we have something to tell you people we find that we do I know I know I know we do we are gonna have our own weekly newsletter but we we make me smart like yeah how our gift to you it's actually I'm very excited about this it's launching this Friday it's the idea is it's just gonna be like a nice little compendium of ways to get smart about the news of the week so it's not going to be based on our episodes and will not repeat yeah that's not what you've already heard yeah it's like its new cool stuff that you can understand better or learn about like it has awesome little weirdo nuggets like it's just it's fascinating and I also it like I'm sorry I saw I saw a mock-up it looks really and and it's super pretty how newsletters look matters actually yeah without a doubt sure so it launches this Friday like I said you the make me smart community our gift to you you get to be the first ones to sign up and then tell us what you like what you like what you like and possibly what you would like to see more of areas of improvement challenges yes you can sign up you can subscribe I think is the word to the new make me smart newsletter at marketplace org slash newsletters and and we'll get it to you on Fridays I think there might even be more there but you should just get to make me stress because it's gonna be so good marketplace not org slash news letters alright we are gonna take a quick break during which I'm going to uncover what my news fix is going to be working our responsibility to listen we'll be right back I know to do your homework and I'm not gonna lie I actually that was my own little joke with myself like what who I'm just working on my news fix I don't know what you guys are doing alright go ahead up I'm so fresh in your mind it is fresh in my mind I mean look I had to spend the whole it's it's amazing how in some ways I'm so far away from my consumer technology roots and then in other ways I'm like I'm spending the whole day on WWDC yeah it is is Apple's Worldwide Developers Conference where they roll out a whole slew of things and and lately honestly roll out a whole slew of things that try to convince you that they still have like a plan as opposed to a million different plans in which any of which they hope will become the next iPhone yeah um so it was really interesting and there was a lot of focus on privacy and I think that's really important but let's be honest the only thing that matters right now is this int and I put in the wrong link but the only thing that matters right now is this entire blow-up about antitrust like how on the money were we with our episode two weeks ago very on the mo because if that we as much as we thought it might be federal privacy regulation or we might you know it might have been about advertising might have been about this or that it turns out that antitrust really is emerging as the tool that government regulators are likely to and maybe even lawmakers are likely to use to come after these tech companies and so yesterday there was a bunch of news about how the Federal Trade Commission and the Justice Department are essentially divvying up jurisdiction about who's gonna be able to take on these companies and how and then almost immediately after there was news that the house might start investigating antitrust allegations who really this is gonna require like a rewriting of the law and and a conversation about what is anti-competitive behavior at attack behemoth versus sort of a classic monopoly and you saw Tim Cook already immediately in an interview after the keynote addresses yesterday have to go on CBS News and say we're not iment we're not a monopoly which is what Mark Zuckerberg also said right Mark Zuckerberg was like oh there's like six different ways to do social media and I just think like that distinction monopoly versus anti-competitive behemoth is about to become a lot more legally interesting so let me ask you so the companies in question just to make sure everybody's up to speed our Facebook Amazon Google and as of yesterday in this mix is Apple yeah do you believe that this divvying up of jurisdictions as it were presupposes action or they just kind of do you think anything's gonna happen is the question I know I mean that is sort of the ongoing question to be so just to specify the divvying landed like this that the F the Federal Trade Commission it looks like we'll have jurisdiction over investigating Facebook with whom it already has a consent decree and Amazon hmm and then the Justice Department would take on these questions of anti-competitive you're and monopolistic behavior with Google and Apple now I gotta say I feel like that seems more likely because there is already evident you know there have already been fines and rulings in Europe that Google has engaged in anti-competitive behavior it's much it's been much closer to a monopoly in terms of search and having Apple you could argue has all also I said this on your show yesterday but like everything that Microsoft got sued for in the 90s Apple has done all along all along they just weren't big enough for it to matter so let's back up for a second to that Microsoft comparison which are made on the Arab marketplace yesterday and the thing you said which caught me was Microsoft lost a decade of innovation because in essence it was fighting all of this yeah it's a bit it's I think there is likely to sort of answer your question directly I think there's a far higher likelihood that the Justice Department will act against Apple and Google then I think the FTC because they seem like little toothless I'll be respect to the FCC and if that happens I think it is really going to be problematic for these companies because it ends up it's years back and forth mm-hmm regardless of what the remedy ends up being I mean Microsoft didn't get broken up but it almost did and to litigate that for another few years and a lot of people believe that that's why you know Microsoft missed the boat on smartphones or didn't come to the cloud until later and that everything is Satya Nadella has done since basically is to try to put the company back in a position that it might have otherwise been in fascinating all right we're gonna see what happens we're gonna see what happens whew yeah I mean come on yes this is used you eat sleep and breathe uh stuff you know their stuff this was an easy one yeah yes okay your turn mine is a speech by Jay pal the chair of the Federal Reserve System of the United States chairman the board rather of the Board of Governors he gave a speech this morning in which he said in essence holy cow this trade stuff is bad and if it keeps being bad the feds going to cut rates and I I mentioned that for two maybe three reasons yeah two maybe three reasons number one it's interesting the chairman Powell is being that open about the things that are driving decision-making at the Fed as we've said he's very data-driven and he's looking at numbers and they're not great and and that's what he said the other thing that there are two other things that are interesting though as I speak right now well CNBC has just gone off to commercial but the Dow Jones Industrial Average is up something like 400 points on Powell's remarks because Powell is going to cut interest rates which gets me to the President of the United States the President of the United States has been very vocal about two things one the stock market when it's going up and number two the Federal Reserve and interest rates and how he wants them cut and so what you see happening now is that the president has trade policies are driving the Federal Reserve because they're doing economic damage they are driving the Federal Reserve to cut interest rates and Wall Street is looking at the Fed cutting interest rates saying party time my brothers and says this come on money's free again right and that's what's happening and to go back to a previous thing where I that I talked about a couple of weeks ago as long as the stock market is rallying or more properly not cratering there is no incentive for the president to change his trade policy actions because he is not being punished by the metric that he understands which is the stock market I hope that makes sense to everybody it does and it starts to get a little nihilistic – you better believe it so so all potentially I mean the trade actions many of them certainly the ones with Mexico appeared to be political in nature just like the where the president is invoking this sort of national security argument to make what appear to be politically motivated trade moves that is correct that may have a dub that that arguably have a double goal right force the Fed to lower interest rates and carry out a political agenda yes and I'm new to this but that doesn't feel like how financial policy is supposed to work it's not it's not none of this is normal none of these so there you go that's what that is I'm just telling you all right so the day I was up for 58 right now S&P is up you know 1.8% Apple shares up 3.4 percent just for the hell of it so there we go remember when guys New Year's prediction was that nothing change and I was mocked I was mocked nothing's gonna matter loewen's no one's gonna wise everybody's gonna continue what I find amazing and I just like a part of me almost wants to believe it's algorithms like just a bunch of computers I find it amazing that the trading class of this country whoever that even is at this point it just like takes the bait every time they're literally like Thomas golden retriever well show her around be honest there are some people who are actually doing this but most of this is algorithmically driven on headlines so when there's a headline on Bloomberg or the New York Times or the FT that says president says China trade deal is close those algorithms go Oh yippee and they bomb we'd love that yeah right hey I want to know I we should do a story about this actually like why is the call in response so predictable and so arguably unthinking computers I mean yeah then we're safe from the computers for another day but how come the algorithm there and tweaks the algorithm just a little bit to be like hey you know these headlines they happen every couple hours in response to a tweet so maybe they're not real information yeah but but the the the catch is that the algorithms are designed not to ferret out real information but to make money oh sorry oh this is Brent oh hey this is Rebecca it was great to hear comments on my question I'm both 2d PR I wanted to put in my vote I want to discuss a slightly different but maybe related thing ayman my brother so here we go last week we talked about the iron curtain possibly falling between US and China on the whole hallway thing and technology and what kind of a mess the globally integrated supply chain is gonna be as you roll all that into the trade war also listeners tuning in from abroad paid special attention because Huawei has a huge presence in Europe and Australia which gets us to Van Feldman who is clearly via Stockholm although who knows from Melbourne Australia he sent us in this voice memo he says he saw something happen in Australia Huawei and ZTE which we talked about were banned from providing 5g in Australia last year this followed an incident we are secured two cameras made by Chinese companies that were already have been installed at an Air Force Base and in the capital Canberra that was used by our intelligence agencies no big deal right no camera in the corner you know there's like a bananas story about this to where they you know they interviewed people from these Australian strategic policy institutes saying it is a dereliction of duty to have these installed a surveillance network at sensitive government facilities that is entirely made and manufactured by Chinese companies no big it's fine listener Adrienne Foyle lives in Poland speaking of people who you we asked if do you use Huawei I Adrian lit uses the Huawei P 20 phone and tweeted us about the band saying it is ridiculous that Trump and America can impact me while on a different continent with no jurisdiction it's a global economy it's a global economy yeah but also how does it affect how does it affect Adrian irritated somehow and who knows but but the larger Bowl because I get it because the US is pressuring all these other company entries – not I think you're still gonna get to keep your p20 which is a super nice bone by the way I don't know but also yeah oh my god they're super pretty just like come to one of those hilarious big tech conferences with me you'll love it it'll be like your favorite thing ever and we can look look at all the shiny phones you and I have different ideas of a good time I'm being super sarcastic cuz okay so now that that's clear timbi all to you was visiting family in the Netherlands not too long ago they use Huawei phones and his relatives said if they had to pick a side of the digital Iron Curtain to be on wait for it they would go with China some of them said the revelations about NSA surveillance were a factor in choosing hallway I'm far from naive about the extent of u.s. surveillance of non-us citizens and aren't anti-china either but I found it fascinating that people in a western country like the Netherlands would rather risk being spied on by the Chinese government instead of by the US government oh yeah we did get some I thought you know reasonably considered criticism that we did not actually a surface the Huawei side of the story in our episode about Huawei which is which was them saying this is ridiculous we're not we are in no way are we at the behest of the Chinese government and I actually met someone recently at an event who said he had work done a lot of work with Huawei on the network site and he was like that's it's absolutely absurd it's not happening hmm it's never happened there's an you know there's no evidence of it happening and it would be incredibly difficult to engage in that kind of spying after the fact once there was an installation and he said MPs as a network professional that stuff works it is really good gear hmm so the wha what you mean you mean the Huawei 5g gear the Huawei the Huawei all of them well networking equipment separate from 5g equipment writ large right because they are currently a provider of all kinds of infrastructure and a lot of IT professionals are like look oh sorry that stuff works and the phones are really good and yeah so fare and importance counterpoint yes all right all right make make me smart question okay we do that yeah um this one it looks like it's gonna be we're gonna learn a lot cuz I just ahead what is something you thought you knew that you later found out you were wrong about rob walker is a journalist and a writer who covers like a bunch of stuff design to the workplace and he wrote this column in the New York Times called the work ologist and he has a new book out that I'm dying to read this leg the greatest title ever it's called the art of noticing and here's his answer so one thing that I thought that I knew is that we have just five senses sight hearing taste smell touch the familiar ones but it turns out that's not really true then we have more senses than that and I've learned this sort of in two ways one really work a day way like by watching an explainer video and one example they use it's easy to understand is thermo ception which is the ability to detect temperature differences and this is why you don't have to touch a flame to feel its heat to sense its heat the other way that I sort of learned about this was at the exact same time a little more highbrow I was reading about this idea that Marcel Duchamp the artist had called the infra thin which was something he made up and never really defined but he would give examples so his examples included like the warmth of a seat that has just been vacated is an example of the infra thin so these two things at the same time just changed my mind about the census that we have and on a broader level taught me something about the way that we frame knowledge sometimes shapes knowledge and limits knowledge and sometimes it's good to reframe or even just throw the frame out and see what that reveals Wow I mean that was cool I'm not entirely sure I understood all of it now I'm gonna need to listen to that a bunch more times and also click some things and Google and read his book but I mean ok alright thermo ception and then like a layer called the infra thin thing for them is amazing perception I love it so the warmth of the seat that has just been vacated and this maybe gets a little body mouth for you but think about warm toilet seats I'm just yes and well and what is your perception yes of that moment that's my perception that's nice or you okay well only at home is it off it depends on where yes of course Wow so anyway that's make me smart for this week I like it wait good job us by the way being so smart with our responses help us help us make us smarter make me smart at marketplace org if you would like to send your answer to the make me smart question and have us talk about thoughts on thermo is this like the third episode in a row where we've responded to the answer to make me smart question which is with basically like might have been open okay so make me smart produced by shire marshy is not here today Tony Wagner was in charge he is also a digital producer senior producer receive trow thanks for every dear producers bent head coat and summer Dunsmore this week's program was engineered by Jay Gorski I knew it because I heard him earlier our theme music was composed by bent Holliday and Daniel Ramirez the executive director of on-demand is sitar Abbas and the senior vice president and general manager is Debra are you out there Oh Deborah Clark you're saying that risk free it's totally respect well one days you're gonna like barge in here at this do do I'm right here I'm right here I have this live-streamed into my office I don't pay money I would pay money but it's not gonna happen I've been letting you get away with it cuz it's so funny but you know so I'm reading all about thermo reception right how are you you you

  1. The guest seemed very smart and eloquent, and everything which she mentioned is ofcourse factually correct. But you see, in today's age statistics and narrative can be used in any way to build a perception. Just like NYT, Washington Post, Al Jazeera etc, the BBC (where your guest is from) is a Left aligned news establishment and will never give un-biased opinion on a conservative government. She highlighted (conservative) hindutva for atleast 5 times in this short talk, which unfortunately doesn't represent the ground reality of the concerns of ordinary citizens of India. 0.00001% or less percent population is impacted by it, but it's a great fear mongering point by the liberal media to instigate a sense of fear amongst religious minorities, which fulfils their liberal agenda to come in power again. There's literally no place left today where I can see totally unbiased opinions, not even at Make Me Smart 🙁

  2. I'm so glad you guys are doing video now. Not that the podcasts were bad or anything but I just miss seeing Molly's face on my screen since she left CNET. She's funny in audio only but her facial expressions are so worth the watch 🙂

  3. Save your time it's all bullshit this lady is speaking. She has an agenda … For example external affairs and defense is head by women, Modi made tripple talak illegal. What a waste of time with thia

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