What is the human cost to China's economic miracle? | Head to Head



over the last four decades China's economic boom has lifted millions out of poverty and set the country on a path to become the world's largest economy we observe an incredible rebalancing of the Chinese economy at a faster pace than anyone else but since President Xi Jinping came to power in 2013 critics say China has become even more autocratic he's tried to curb corruption but has also cracked down on his rivals and invested billions in a bigger stronger military reflecting a more aggressive foreign policy jeong-hui he's here data where who didn't go to hurt me at home up to a million Muslim we girls are believed to have been interned by the Chinese authorities in so-called re-education centers this appears to be the most intensive social re-engineering effort of the Chinese state since the Cultural Revolution but my guest tonight disputes all this and believes China is a force for good in the world I'm Manny Hassan and I've come here to the Oxford Union to go head-to-head with Charles Liu a Chinese financier senior fellow at the Peking University and an advisor to the Chinese government I'll challenge him on China's human rights record and ask him is China's economic miracle sustainable and what on earth is going on with the wiggers tonight I'll also be joined by three experts Steve Tseng director of the China Institute at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London andreas folder a China expert at the University of Nottingham's Asia Research Institute and Victor Gao vice-president of the center for China and globalization in Beijing and the former interpreter for the late President Deng Xiaoping [Applause] ladies and gentlemen please welcome Charles lu lu is the founder and chairman of investment company how Capital and a regular TV commentator on Chinese issues Charles Liu thanks for joining me on head-to-head Chinese President Xi Jinping whose government you've advised said last year China is ready for a bloody battle against our enemies and kicked off 2019 by ordering the People's Liberation Army to quote prepare for a comprehensive military struggle with who Charles there's only one country that is sending warships into Chinese territory that is threatening China with all kinds of things the United States United States whenever I hear president Trump speak he says how much he loves President Xi and how they're great pals but everything that he's doing all the executive orders the military budget all of this is focused on challenging China's position in the world China has one military outpost u.s. has 800 it's interesting because you say the u.s. is a threat and threatening China and China's reacting it's funny because the US commander on the ground in the asia pacific admiral phil davidson in february told to the US Senate the exact opposite he says through fear and economic pressure Beijing is working to expand its form of ideology in order to bend break and replace the existing rules-based international order who's replacing rules of international order who's cracking down on WTO who's left of Paris climate agreement who's challenging agreement that's reached with the Iranians who it's not China I mean you can make it all about America but and I'm not here to defend Trump's America but the reality is that Chinese Hawks independently of the US are on the ascendant in your country on 20th of December Chinese rear admiral luo UN said the Chinese Navy should consider sinking two US aircraft carriers and killing 10,000 US service personnel the United States fears the most is taking casualties will see how frightened America is I don't take these these these type of comments seriously the chance of a war between the two societies is minimum last year the Chinese government announced its biggest increase in melon in military spending for three years even though you already have a defense budget which is bigger than the UK France South Korea and Russia combined and yet you announced the biggest increase for three years this is not just about words oh when the US still continues to challenge as they do for entering Chinese territorial waters however you look at it the total amount it is still insignificant compared to us significant but you spend you K France and Russia combined three nuclear powers the three nuclear powers in terms of population that's up to how many what's population got to do with your military spending you have a big population we know that what's the military but the capital spending of India has a huge population they don't they spend a quarter of what you so they wish they had the money to spend more let's talk about something where doesn't directly involve the United States the South China Sea arbitration the permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague ruled in 2016 that Chinese claims to the South China Sea have no legal basis and yet the Chinese continue to disregard that ruling China's claiming more and more land more and more resources building more and more of these artificial islands I think seven so far Malaysia Vietnam Indonesia Brunei the Philippines they've all been upset with Chinese behavior in the South China Sea with China taking these cut reefs all the discussion about South China Sea has been so-called freedom of navigation when was it last time you seen a blockage of freedom of navigation and when was the last time you heard the countries you've named including Vietnam raise an issue on China and South China Sea it's only your friends Americans and the Australians who are jumping up and down all over this it's interesting sailor because in 2018 a bunch of Asian countries mainly your neighbors were asked would it be better to have for the world to have the u.s. or China as the leading global power seventy-three percent of Asian respondents including Japan South Korea the Philippines Indonesia favored the u.s. vs. 12 percent for China even with Trump as president 77 percent of Filipinos say they prefer u.s. leading the world to Beijing that's pretty damning to pick Trump over China that's pretty damning I would argue that is but but in practical terms I don't see these countries in terms of their foreign policy in their governments addressing the Chinese as a pure poll would seem to indicate let's bring in our panel here to see what they think about this so far andreas folder is a German academic a China expert at the university of Nottingham's Asia Research Institute and risk should China's neighbors and the wider world be worried about this Chinese military buildup this increase in spending yeah I think they should and the truth of the matter is if when see Jean King talks about China's national rejuvenation it is worrisome because the underlying tenets are a radical revisionist and expansionist foreign policy as evident from the artificial reefs in the South China Sea but also his threat of maxing Taiwan which is a liberal democracy a very vibrant Society just opposite the coast of mainland China and what I think his game plan is to project his power abroad to shore up his support at home chaals just deal with and raise a specific point about Taiwan you were born in Taiwan of course if you still lived in Taipei today and Taiwanese capital wouldn't you be worried at some of the rhetoric coming out of Beijing about and it I wouldn't be at all well no I actually went does it take to worry you Tom no I I went to Taipei for the midterm elections what I see in Taipei or in Taiwan today is the people in Taiwan have gotten fed up with so-called independence politics they're looking for better life well why is it a hundred seventy thousand engineers of left Taiwan and have gone to Shenzhen why is it all that ninety percent of the startups in Taiwan are aimed at the Chinese market another Taiwanese market I think the fact that the economies have become so integrated between Taiwan and China its leads to let's say the possibility of addressing the issue but my impression is that the young Taiwanese are actually quite worried that the Meiji lose out in this process and also lose their de facto sovereignty as a Liberal Democratic Island State but that is no longer considered a primary issue even for the younger people okay let me bring in Steve Tseng who's a British political scientist born in Hong Kong currently director of the China Institute at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London Steve is this a new form of aggressive foreign policy in China or is that just an exaggeration on the part of China's enemies what is China trying to do with its foreign policy that trying to change the region change the world after shooting we become leader of China what we are seeing is an assertive foreign policy that essentially amongst to China now requests and requires the rest of the world to pay China due respect and what amongst to do respect is something to be judged by the Communist Party of China or in fact by the leader of China general secretary of Communist Party CGP okay we've also got Victor gal with us one of China's best-known international politics experts vice president the center for china and globalization in beijing former interpreter for the late president Deng Xiaoping you can't deny that the current Chinese president is taking different steps as producers is demanding respect on the regional and international stage China doesn't want to challenge the international order today but China wants to have a better say a larger say in the international order today and I hope the rest of the world will respect China's request because this is legitimate this is legal this is not revolutionary means to overthrow the International see there's a debate about legality Stephen you're smiling there when China is not out there to change the international system as we know it at the moment but it is transforming it when the UN agency for Human Rights was being changed and then trying to play a leading role in the transformation decorations of the Human Rights Council and I said does so it basically changes the discussions at the UN about human rights now China is not doing much of the receiving end of criticism on human rights let me ask you this one of the reasons so many people abroad are worried about Chinese foreign defense policies right now is because you have a president who at home appears to be bent on increasing his own power and reach Chinese presidents since Mao as you know tended to serve five or ten years in office but President Xi is crackdown on his rivals refused to designate a successor and last year got rid of term limits he's gearing up to be president for life isn't he dictator in chief okay two things number one it's a one-party system we don't thank god the key issue for the Chinese government is that they tried very hard over the years to maintain stability you're claiming this president for life thing is precisely you don't understand how the system works okay explain it now take Kuching town for example during his second term was seen as lame lame duck for the entire second term and he couldn't implement or execute a lot of things that he wanted to execute it doesn't mean that he's actually going to continue for another term but that prospect would take out the possibility of being regarded as lame duck but it does give him the option to serve for life legally with either system if it goes in that direction he does seem to be going in that direction not necessarily okay quick question though on the vote last year in March that was devoting the National People's Congress to get rid of term limits that delegates voted two thousand nine hundred and sixty four of them voted two of them voted against two thousand nine hundred and fifty nine voted in favor was a free and fair election I'm just wondering to come in 2009 everybody voted the way you wanted coincidence no he was now Chinese politics works apparently that's how it works okay good to hear such an endorsement of the system I think you should not be addressing the Chinese entire system of how it works in comparison to what you have in the West you have to remember that 50 years ago 90% of the population were you literate only 10% was literate sophisticated educated the whole process of transforming that into a modern society is it's taken a long time by the way lots of Chinese people weren't happy with the to tournaments and they took to Weibo and other online forums and they were not allowed to in fact the Chinese government disallowed the words personality cult my emperor two-term limit Emperor Shi they were all not allowed to use those words online to avoid people's dissatisfaction with this move you you read Weibo I don't read Weibo but others who read it for me okay now they are comments their views and comments describing their views and comments on this issue they got shut down it's not true it got shut down because I can I I wrote something on this as well well you wrote something critical of President Xi and Weibo absolutely oh wow what did you write I said this will not be regarded well by the Western press we got to move on time is short we wanted to write economy in part two before we do there's another big domestic issue that's grabbed a lot of headlines in recent months your country the government you support and have advised according to a UN Rapporteur according to the US State Department according to Amnesty International according to Human Rights Watch according to plenty of journalists and many others are believed to have detained maybe a million people or more mainly from the Weger Muslim ethnic minority in reeducation camps a million people Charles a million okay it's certainly now grabbing headlines in China is it not because you don't have a free press in China so you can't have headlines about the week is no it's because they're 55 national minorities in China and we Gers population is in total 9 and 10 million I believe in Xinjiang yes zero point zero point seven percent but the world doesn't work on Sentret is if you lock up a million world essence the world pays attention 1.4 billion people need to be fed need to be closed I got to be educating people in shinjang that must concern you to hear that a million people of your fellow Chinese country men and women have been locked if it's true sure how do we establish if it's true or not why don't you let people in to check and count then we'll know for sure I think people have visited no they've been on kind of supervised trips with Chinese monitors to select camps where they haven't been able to see everything in fact Reuters went to the trip last year they were taken around they were allowed to meet some people and the people sang if you're happy and you know it clap your hands and Chinese government monitors stood in the room the whole time and no one was allowed to speak to any one individual you know Charles there are there are people have been in this camp who have come out of those camps and now refugees in the u.s. in Kazakhstan and they have testified to hooding shackling torture sleep deprivation Eve sexual humiliation starvation this is what's coming out from people who've been in those camps in Xinjiang if it's true then there's certainly very bad this is not my area of expertise and I'm not involved into politics and I've never been to Xinjiang I'm more concerned about the economic side but let me bring in Victor Gao who is a very well known Chinese political commentator even Chinese government officials have admitted that there are these camps there are people locked up for quote-unquote re-education but in the most horrific conditions and we're talking up to a million people Victor how can you justify that the wigle people are our brothers and sisters I have many friends among the legal people among the Muslim people in China they are minority most of them are great Chinese nationals that's for sure however among the Uighur Muslims there are extremists there are terrorists and there are separate separatists which want to who want to split Shing Jong away from China in China under the Chinese law anyone attempting to separate any part of Chinese territory outside of China is committing a crime we need to be foreign aware of this legal issue we cannot tolerate some Regas have been caught up in international terrorism no one's denying that I'm wondering why not lock them up I lock up a million people first of all all together in Xinjiang there is less than 10 million wiggle people if you are really serious in believing that there is a 1 million people among the widows who are locked up in so-called caps this is completely fabricated Achtung I do not know you can't fight a million if you don't have an alternative number there are several things what is the definition of 1 million or less than 1 million that's one thing the other one is locked up well they're not there of their own volition or they know there are people in Ching Jeong who are going through training or retraining for education purposes there are people in education because it's kyrat summer camp who was one of the people who managed to get out of a camp he says we were forced to sing political songs and study speeches of the Chinese Communist Party we were forced to chant long live Xi Jinping before we were given our meals many of us have tried to attempt suicide allow me to say one thing for sure no one in China is saying long live Xi Jinping so whatever reporter you are quoting is false to start with here's what I don't get Victor the UN Amnesty International Human Rights Watch the US State Department various China experts human rights activists have come up with this number of a million based on satellite photography based on people who have come out and talked about it you're saying it's not a million I'm asking very simply how many is it I think we need to just differentiate the reality is on the ground versus to falsify the claims so refugees Uighur refugees have talked about being tortured in camps they're just making it up according to you I think lots of these claims are falsified and you're a friend of the weaker people okay andreas folder what do you make of Victor's response and Charles's responses so far I think it's you know both what Charles and Victor said is indefensible and let me explain for a lot of people who support the choice comes party cultural difference has to be dealt with by homogenize ation and assimilation but let me give a human face to these people there is a pop singer he's famous for a song where he's encouraging young people to study hard to do exercising to be courteous he is not a terrorist Victor or a second example there is another gentleman he was very promising footballer because he traveled abroad he was deemed potential terrorist he is in a camp he is not a terrorist in the last but not least and it's really important the peace activist Ilham tohti very widely respected individual he has always advocated that the predominantly hung Chinese should get along with the weekers and vice-versa he was locked up for life for this kind of moderate advocacy on behalf of his own people so I would say these three individuals need to be released immediately the 1 million weekers and cossacks need to be released immediately there is no justification to bring so much harm to them and their families they should be able to live in peace and free from their victor what's your response to that and Charles you wanted to come in do you know how many we go fighters are fighting definitely not a military actor five thousand people so why not five thousand people we go fighter fighting in Syria has about three or four persons in their family fighting together how does five thousand fighters go over to Syria come on Charles every country has had problems with fighters going out to Syria France is endured for terrorist attacks in China wait wait wait locked up a million Muslims in from five thousand and how did they get there this is support group the same in France Charles and the French have not locked up a million people they have a problem the French claim they have a problem of radicalization they fought in a state of emergency but they haven't detained a many people even the French haven't said you can't name your son Mohammed you can't have children entering mosques government employees can't fast during Ramadan you can't grow quote abnormally long beard that's where saging has banned Weger people from doing that's false how about children not being allowed to go into mosques that's totally false why is it false how do you know it's false because I've seen the photos of them of the sign photos of I have a neighbor next media next-door neighbor who is Muslim and who goes to mosque with his children in Beijing you know what happened you say don't ask me I don't know anything about this but then you jump in to say everything's fake Stephen let me ask you this you're listening to chance of inter saying this is propaganda what do we know what does the evidence suggests you've seen that can be corroborated about what's happening in the ground on a place like India what we do note of the political system is that the Communist Party of China has a monopoly of the truth and the monopoly of history in China therefore what they say must be true is by definition and what anybody else has to say that does not coincide with what the party says of course news that is what we are dealing with when we are talking about 1/10 of an identifiable minority in the home country being identified and put in camps how would our friends here for you if 1/10 of the native populations of Shanghai or Beijing are living in camps Charles don't answer that I have never thought about that question ok but he's just posed in I just don't see it I don't see it happening I don't see it possible physically to spend this inordinate amount of time on something which many myself included don't feel to be truthful is I think negative propaganda on your part matter he's what I don't get on the one hand you say I don't know anything about this on the other hand you said I believe it's untruthful you can't have it both ways stars if you don't know anything about it maybe you shouldn't accuse other people are making stuff up and you and Victor say it's all fake news maybe there's maybe there is some fake news there ok well on that note we're gonna leave the discussion we're gonna take a break we're gonna come back in part two of head-to-head with Charles Liu with our panel of experts we're gonna hear from our patient audience here in the Oxford Union we're going to talk about the Chinese economic miracle and about much more [Applause] [Applause] welcome back to head to head on al-jazeera my guest today is Charles Lou the financier entrepreneur informal advisor to the Chinese government undoubtedly the Chinese economy has been a success story in many ways record growth millions of people lifted out of poverty I don't any one's questions that but there are of course as you know serious concerns about the sustainability of the Chinese economic miracle how long it's gonna last the jobs markets got a lot of tougher exports and imports have slowed down the Chinese stock indexes I believe lost almost a quarter of their value last year even the trade war with the US seems to be taking its toll are we witnessing the beginning of the end of the Chinese economic miracle I remember a book from 1998 by a top economist called the oncoming collapse of the Chinese economy and that's 1998 2019 it's 20 some years ago there's been plenty of discussion about the oncoming collapse of the Chinese economy and the oncoming collapse of the Chinese financial system on coming collapse of Chinese productivity I'm afraid so far it's proven that the Chinese economy is transforming and it's moving from cheap labor manufacturing for fortune 500 companies to a significantly meaningful domestic market and domestic consumption now six point five percent okay I would say to my co investors even 4% is is quite good because the base is so much bigger now okay one thing that's been a consistent trend in China has just been getting worse and worse over the last few decades is inequality that seems to be spiraling out of control in your country there were 89 new Chinese billionaires in 2018 alone that's almost two new billionaires a week while tens of millions of people still live in poverty why is a self-styled communist society producing so many billionaires and so much income in well I think it's the value of creation in society as a whole Deng Xiaoping said let's some people get rich first in terms of developing Milton Friedman said something similar as other okay I think capitalists say the same thing too to be exactly typical down economics is now the Chinese it's a Chinese socialist way okay it sees the trickle down or is there something much more significant according to a recent study by the European think-tank Bruegel quote the large and persistent income gap is partly the fault of China's tax and transfer system and quote very generous personal income tax allowance and exemptions that favor high-income individuals you're a high-income individual aren't you Charles have you've benefited from this tax system Avenue while other Chinese happened there too aspect to this new tax laws have just been implemented which is supposed to be much more fair second is it's very very difficult to have a transforming society that is changing so rapidly and to have a taxing system that fits in every stage of development if you look at China in the 1980s early 1990s it was basically cheap manufacturing and then he moved into something else and yet today the article 1 of the Chinese Constitution still says that the People's Republic of China is a socialist state led by the working class that's just a completely false description of China today not led by the working class and you're not really a socialist state yeah we're certainly not as socialism no Norway and Finland in Sweden we prefer to look at what happens to the economy and whether or not people's livelihoods have been improved ok well let's talk about some of the rich Chinese and what they're up to the who are on group very well-respected research company did a survey of high net worth individuals in China rich millionaires and so and they found that almost half the number of rich Chinese are planning to move away from China to protect their fortunes and to get better education for their kids a lot of Chinese billionaires billionaires as you know I mean you keep going on about the west the west a lot of the rich people in your country are obsessed with the West they buy houses in the West they send their kids to school in the West they buy Western art at ridiculous prices how come it's part of investment I buy things in the way as well one in six and they wanted to move because of the political environment in China one in five said they want to protect their assets three-quarters said they want their children to have a better education not a great vote of confidence in China from its richest people okay I have investments all over the world as well it doesn't mean that I'm moving out of China number you should look at is the number of students returning to China after getting an education in the west of course with China vilification by the US a lot of Chinese students are being pushed out of US schools I get how billionaire businessman can send their kids abroad to study how do you explain the president of China on a $22,000 a year official salary paying for his only daughter to go to Harvard how do you explain all these top Politburo officials who were on 22,000 $23,000 a year sending their kids to some of the most expensive private schools and universities how do they pay for that if you went purely by SAT scores that 80% of the population of the UC system will be Asian they happen to be better students and they get scholarships so did she Jinping's daughter get a scholarship to go to Harvard I don't know I assume you could she could have because you know that his family according to a Bloomberg study I found to be billionaires his brother-in-law's name appeared in the Panama papers the Chinese political elite is riddled with corruption as you well know and that's something that there's been in the process of being interested the last four years what does that say about your model that the Chinese government has rounded up two million people Communist Party officials have been disciplined for corruption in recent years thank God that they've been rounded up and what about the president Napolitano rest people who are not in his inner circle the people he likes never seem to get arrested not true really can you name an ally of the president who he's learned about recently who's an ally who was not there are Pali Bureau members who brought two charges well let's ask our panel Andrea's folder is here China expert at the University of Nottingham Asia Research Institute in the UK you've advised German and European authorities on engagement of China you're shaking your head when Charles talks about corruption how bad a problem is it in China and is it being dealt with well first of all of course it's very opaque it's a dangerous topic to talk about however we know from the WikiLeaks and one of the Abel's from the US State Department the Politburo Standing Committee is basically a cabal of business empires and these individual members control whole industries so was what was alleged is that for example the now imprisoned securities are joining account that he basically controlled the oil industry and for example the case of the former Premier Wen Jiabao his wife she apparently like diamonds a lot so she would control the precious gems sector now if you think about the covering up the economic pie like this then thinking that this founder of Amazon is the richest man in the world I think becomes a rather fanciful idea because these members in the Politburo Standing Committee probably and their families are far richer than any individual outside China Victor Gao is with us Chinese international politics expert vice-president the center for China and globalization in Beijing former interpreter to the late President Deng shopping how do you introduce someone who's been around some of these people you've been in their presence where do they get all their money from if their own 22 grand a year first of all for the record corruption in China is deeply entrenched secondly as an institution and as a policy the Chinese government Chinese party and the Chinese people cannot tolerate corruption so whatever that's necessary to weed out corruption to try not the corrupt officials we will do and this is exactly as Charles mentioned the Chinese system is doing over the past five or six years in particular to be relentless in chasing after these corrupt cases Chinese overseas wealth has doubled between 2012 and 2018 yeah they seem to be getting away with offshoring all their assets let me add another point however over the past 20 or 30 years property prices in China in almost all the cities has gone up significantly so most of the urban citizens in China to say the least about the government officials can actually afford their kids send their kids to the best schools in the West especially of the Chinese system of family relatives pulling up funds together to support the outstanding member in China many andreas his point that you have the former Prime Minister's wife controlling the diamond industry have different Politburo members controlling different sectors of the economy how is that that's socialism with the Chinese characteristic that's exactly what we were talking about before Politburo members were hauled to task for these things I mean the thing is there was a report by the people Bank of China in 2011 and they found out that since the 1990s 18,000 party officials managers of SOE like big state-owned enterprise et cetera had fled the country and they took with them a whopping 120 20 billion US dollars if you think about that kind of theft of and looting of state assets if that had been invested let's say in the Chinese education system or in China's health system that would have alleviated a lot more poverty let me bring in Steve Tseng he's been waiting patiently British political scientist born in Hong Kong currently the director of the China Institute at the School of Oriental and African Studies in London how bad is the inequality problem in China right now could either of our distinguished guests from China tell us what the Gini coefficient is in China this is the measure of inequality that is the measure of inequality I studied China my entire career I confess that I cannot tell you because that no such figures is available right because the Chinese government don't want it to be available maybe the party has collect them but if the party has the information is top secret it's completely classified we are not allowed to know what it is Victor in China many people are not very happy about comparing their wealth to their neighbors however one thing is true among the majority of the Chinese people that is if that person compares his own situation with his situation 10 years of or 20 years ago or 40 years ago everyone is better off that's the mega trend we need to keep focused on the great changes that have that's happening to everyone among the Chinese people and that means every chance quality's a major issue you can't just dismiss it I just want to finish deal with this point about where this wealth comes from and how they use it to spend abroad this problem of corruption is basically systemic and the Chinese government understood Jinping has done a lot to deal with corruption you quoted the 2 million figure overall there is also a different set of figures the so called tiger figure Tigers are basically vice minister and the bulk ranked senior leaders in the Chinese government by the Western academic calculations we calculate about just below 200 tigers has been brought down the chinese state media differ figures of closer to about 700 amongst the 200 or 700 figures named theory who are people who had previously worked with President Xi and why is it so difficult to name even one single one of those name someone you don't know who is 207 hundreds are but but you know you you can know who they are but how do you identify who is in what camp we can look at their career the parties vary in their career structures who who had worked with President Xi when he was in which end proposition is that people around Rose you have not been locked up for corruption that steve pigeon can you dispute that do you have a do you have a person i don't have a view on that okay let's take let's go i want to go back to something you said yeah when you said that the amount of wealth that left china in the last ten years or something between 2012 and 2018 is doubled I believe GDP has doubles as well there are a lot of Chinese billionaires taking advantage acts avens I'm wondering how that's okay in a socialist country supposedly with the you're defining socialist you know maybe how do you define socialism I think social this is just a slogan okay in reality is the Chinese way of doing things I'm glad we agree it's just a slogan for the Chinese okay let's go to the audience you've been waiting very patiently raise your hands wait for a microphone to come to you let's go to lady here thank you very much I am a whore I have been cut off from my speaking to my family since beginning of 2017 just like many thousands of workers living overseas and my question to you mr. Liu does it really bother or concern you that the country that you made home after renouncing your Taiwanese citizenship is criminalizing the entire four people and implementing policies that major Western news organizations lawmakers and legal scholars have described as crimes against humanity thank you first of all I have we girlfriends if it's valid that there are things which are not properly done of course is not good of course isn't not good early you said that it was propaganda from me when you hear these stories you realize it's probably not best just to dismiss everything as propaganda I use propaganda because you are you are abrasive aggressive way of addressing it sorry it wasn't about the substance you just don't like my style okay that's I can live with that the substance of it is what's going on she costs because the family this lady said I don't know okay I don't know victims wants to jump in go on Victor no for this upstanding lady I would say if you are a widow I will treat you as a brother or sister the same as I will treat the majority of the people among the widow people secondly if I can give you one piece of advice I would say several things if any of your Widow brothers and sisters and relatives are Communist Party members in China then by party discipline they are not allowed to go to a mosque if they want to go to a mosque fine resign from the Communist Party of China so the government in China has a discipline if you're a communist party member of China don't go to a Moscow to the police the tempo control don't I need to ask you a follow-up on this there in our reports which haven't been really denied by the Chinese government that the Communist Party that you talked about is sending Han Chinese people to live in weig houses to watch them 24/7 as they eat drink pray is that fake news as well there is no problem in believing Islam I have many Islamic friends okay you have your friends you have Muslim friends I get it no however you have people living in your house against your will not because a lot of we Gers do right now however if anyway in china misuses islam as a pretext to split ginger away from china that's a crime all their people's living weak homes in Xinjiang right now on behalf of the Communist Party and I'm not aware of I've never been inside the family of a wiggle friend unfortunately a lot of Chinese Communist Party members have let's go back to the audience let's take the lady there in the green scarf at the back yes who's that five thousand people went to the Syria and the fight and my question to you is how did you know that time to go Syria to fight with such a strict barrier every 100 meters there are one checkpoints and events all people can't go on town to another town and such a strict surveillance how did you lets up to go to the Syria Victor you want to take that question most of these wiggle fighters now in Syria and previously and currently in Afghanistan have smuggled themselves out of China so in that action itself is a violation of Chinese law yet there are smuggling activities bringing Wiggles out of China through Miyama to Malaysia for example so this is a problem not only to China but to China's neighboring countries Andres folder you're here at China code it's gonna get your take on this this all you know about terrorism it's a credible argument in your view well you yourself made the point that every country has to deal with these extremists and the question is how you do that I think this idea that you need to create this mono racial nation where ethnic difference is not tolerated where cultural difference is not tolerated and where religious activity is not tolerated I think this is for the lack of a better word rabbit hole that the Chinese coins party has gone in where I'm not quite sure how they can get out where the off-ramp really is because do you want to keep like a million weekers in these camps forever or the next five years or when you release them I need to go back to the audience but very briefly Victor how long how long do these camps Topa first of all I do not agree with the premise of your question there are more mosques being built as we speak then probably any other religious establishments in China fine let's go back to audience this lady here in the black share in the second row China still has a poor social security net and working labor rights and working conditions of the poor workers are still a problem in China I want to ask how can these conditions be improved Charles there is a shortfall in the social security pool there's no question one of the ways that that has been addressed has been the allocation of 10% of the shareholding of state-owned enterprises many of which are listed companies either in New York or Hong Kong or in China and to allocate that into the social security pool isn't the problem that again can write as idea of socialism slogan or not in the beginning of the show you were telling me Oh India wishes they could spend what we spend on defense because that's really something to brag about when you spend I think 5% of your GDP on health and 2% on education which is lower than what Sudan spends on health and education as a proportion of money that's pretty embarrassing for a country your size ups your well think calling it a socialist I think abandoning the poor people health and I think I think the health education spending should people want and enjoy hasn't it mean it's been increasing significantly but why is it so low in a country that claims to care about the working-class it could it could be spending more sure let's take some more questions annuities lady in the red shirt my question is do you think that the rise in population and the economic slowdown in the West is possibly a threat to China the rise of populism ultimately in a political sense is a threat to the whole world because what we have in terms of the US for example and even Europe is a challenge to the rise of Asia of all it's not China because if you look at the 280 components for your iPhone 270 something I made in Asia and assembled in China and its efficiency is enhanced because of the market size so this rise of populism in trying to move the supply chain from Asia back to the United States it is a threat it's a threat to the whole world not just to China because this supply chain and this market has been very beneficial for the whole world this is how the West including the US and Europe has been able to get lower cost of living Lord and cheaper goods okay let's go gentlemen who is waiting with the hat I lost contact with my old families since early 2017 and I recently found out my siblings and they are in that so-called concentration camps and I don't know are they still alive or not and secondly I don't know my mother's she is well and why I'm not allowed to communicate with them and also why they not allowed to my mother or my relatives to contact with me and why my mom must suffer from not seeing and hearing from their source that's my question that's the statement I die I have no idea let me let me turn into a question when you hear such stories aren't you concerned as a citizen of China so what might be going on in your car yes I am and when you go back to China you're gonna do anything about it I'll find out more about the subject okay let's go let's go back to the audience I said at the back firstly do you believe that China's notion of human rights is fundamentally different and if so how would you define China's human rights policy okay good question I think cultural differences are there in terms of human rights for example cultural differences and actually concrete circumstances there was a lot of complaint about the violation of human rights to force one family per child but if that policy was not implemented China would be over 2 billion people now who will feed them who educate them so there are concrete circumstances and very pragmatic issues that have to be addressed okay gentlemen debate I said yet if you're gonna stand up and get the mind do you think it is good practice for the Chinese government to have full control over the information its citizens view online do you take a sneaky peek at the rest of the internet when you're in the UK I don't have I don't have any problems because I don't take sneaky peeks of things that I'm not interested in okay so in terms of its question should the Chinese government control the flow of information system I think there should be some measure of control including in the United States total control in China that should be lesson that should be reduced you'd like to see it reduce them Jack yeah do you think it will be in some in some cases it has been okay let me ask you is we're out of time but I did want ask you this you were born in Taiwan in capitalist society you moved to the US as a child you studied at nyu and princeton you worked at the UN but in 1975 I believe you gave up your Taiwanese passport and your u.s. green card to become a citizen of the People's Republic what made you give up all those liberties and freedoms and move to China i felt quite oppressed in the US okay I participated with Martin Luther King in the civil rights march in 1968 Wow and against the war in Vietnam and I have one of my fellow students at Princeton beaten to death by rednecks just because it was Chinese and you thought China was the place to go to get well no I just thought if they don't want a Chinese I'll just be Chinese and you participate in the MLK's protests civil right 1960 you think those protests could ever happen in China I was actually shocked at how it took 200 years for the u.s. to be addressing the issue of blacks sitting on the back of buses so China's behind in the timeline you might get those protests but not right now well I hope China doesn't have to to have protests for these things to be allowed in the moment at the point I'm making you can't protest in China no way you're avoiding this there's plenty of protests in terms of even when the stock market crash you know people are protesting Charles Liu will have to leave it there thank you so much for joining me on the show thanks to our audience here in the Oxford Union thanks to our panel thanks for watching thank you Charles Liu [Applause]




Comments
  1. The biased Muslim “reporter” is so unhinges. It’s hilaarious😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

  2. Mahdi is a joke, he just comes out with unsubstantiated innuendo,you do good work, but here you make yourself look trivial. How can you talk about about wealth differences and not mention the inequality in the west.

  3. The 'one child' policy wreaked havoc on the natural order of things in China. So let's not pretend it went well. There are 36 million Chinese men who are unable to find wives in China now. Was the policy so great after all?

  4. Why would Al Jazeera representative be asking anyone around the world about leadership term limits when the same issue in the Middle East area is so questionable? Where is his head to head with these Middle East leaders? Is there a mote in the eye problem here?

  5. Medhi, where is your head to head with European and American leaders on how they have profited from destroying the lives of the human population they have 'USED' to build their economies? No, you won't have one as you are afraid.

  6. What are you saying Medhi? Xi is not looking for love. Why quote Donald's silly statement re loving Xi Jinping?

  7. What was the human cost to Europe and America's economic boom? Is there a difference between what China is doing to the Uighur Muslim than what the Muslim did to Africa and South East Asia? As well as what Europe using the 'Christian Missionary Armies' did to Africa, the Middle East, Pacific Islands, Central and South America and the Caribbean?

  8. good watch. recommended!
    I am surprised that there are still journalists who keep an open eye on the development in asia. Good job!
    Very embarrassing and weak performance of the chin. government puppets

  9. I am pakistani,studying in beijing,i go to mosque whenever i want to,i visited xian i could hear the call of azaan everywhere,people are free to say prayer….point is when a group of people will challenge the rit of government they should be punished,and china has the right to do it…

  10. China is good for the world. We need to balance power in the world so that the US can no longer act unilaterally.

  11. If its not broken don't fix it.. China is growing and getting more and more powerful and everyone is trying to discredit them..

    No offence i am a Filipino Australian, so i know how the world views china especially the west. China isn't evil or anything like that since the west is just exactly the same. Anyone in power is exactly doing what china is doing right now or have done it before. Aljazeera is just as bad China in propaganda, hypocrasy and etc.

    So yeah, we can all argue whether china is good or evil, but in the end of the day those of us living in 1st world countries are benefiting/benefited to the same injustice

  12. The representatives of the china rely too much on the intelligence of the interviewer and that hope failed them a hole lot.

  13. there are a lot of Half han chinese, part russian Uyghers in CHina, this is QATAR base arabian media, biased against the world and yet We have not seen the COST to Arabian World's Economic miracle lol, Oil, Slavery, wife abusers.

  14. 会不会秦死皇建河通海厭,卻建长城藏咩群,再勤找世界流行咩样出面,,,S0,名星脸会害他人夫妻失合,然後布修狀,然後再安慰然後,,,SO。

  15. Silly interview. Waste of time.

    All due respects to the situatio with the Uighurs BUT If nobody is sure what the number of Uighurs that have been locked up is, then there are NO credible numbers.

    "A million people locked up" is hyperbole.

    In any case, why are other countries surprised that China has re-education camps?

    This Chinese guy Charles they found doesn't seemed a very good person to interview. Al Jazeera failed themselves trying to roast someone who doesn't know very much at of all places the Oxford Union.

    Nottingham professor seems clueless but hey its University of Nothingham. Hong KOng prof as per usual an apologist for the Western "democratic ideals". You won't get much out of Deng's ex interpreter.

    Bottom line is this is a bit of a farce.

    Next time get a better person to interview.

    And a better panel (its not difficult)

    Try Eric X Li.

  16. .. it is true that China is becoming steadily uncloaked in it's anticipated stand-off with the US to enforce it's 'belt'

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