Viewer: Call the Leninist Left Tankies, It’s What They Are!


Okay. Let’s go to some notable discussions
from the David Pakman show subreddit, which you can of course find at David pakman.com/reddit
now boasting nearly 16,000 subscribers from our online radio, television, and satellite
television audiences. Last week I, uh, some notable discussions I want to go over. Last
week I did a story about the divisions on the left and there was a faction of the left
that I said, you know, sometimes I call this the Leninist left. Sometimes they are called
tankinis, but I find those terms pejorative. I would like to have some other way to refer
to this group. And there’s a post on our subreddit which says, David, you should call the Lennon
is left hankies. It’s not bad to be confrontational to ignorant people. Tankers are not just people
who espouse far left views. They are people who hate the West and like Russia, China,
Iran, North Korea, over the U S and European union. These people support Tulsi Gabard because
of her isolation, his stances, and even make false claims that she is anti-Israel. Okay,
so listen, I think that there’s a case to be made that the term may not be an inaccurate
one to call some of these folks hankies or Lennon is left. My point is I don’t think
it’s productive because the term is pejorative and I got a bunch of emails about this and
the consensus was I should be calling that wing of the left, the revolutionary left or
the Marxists left. Now Marxists left. I’m unsure of because I don’t know that the entire
Leninist left is literally Marxists. They’re also not literally net Leninist so maybe it
doesn’t matter if a, the term literally applies to everyone. Revolutionary left may actually
be a good term to non pejoratively. Describe that slice of the left. Let me know what you
think. Also, much follow up about the discussion
we had earlier this week about debates with Charlie Kirk, the right wing bomb thrower
from turning point USA as well as my absence at Politiken. This user says David needs to
do a public debate despite the WWE pro wrestling vibes. I just watched the political debate
between Kyle Kalinsky and Charlie Kirk and it was frustrating. Both of them got applause
when they made points. I felt Kyle was correct on substance, but he lost key letting Kirk
and Gish Gallop a lot and could have used more of his time to make his case. Even though
he did a great job of demonstrating his consistent principles and criticizing policies of both
parties. He lost his cool way too often, almost to the point of coming across as whiny. I
don’t know if David has experienced with these kinds of debates, but he’s very much in control
of everything when he has guests on who disagree with him. Yeah. Listen, I am flattered by people saying,
David, you would have done way better than Kyle in this scenario. I really don’t know
that that’s the case and I’m not playing pho humble. I mean the those types of situations
can go any number of ways that when the crowd gets involved, when the moderator plays or
doesn’t play a particular role, it’s not clear to me. My, my, what I feel very strongly about
is that this is not a format overall in terms of the timing structure, role of the moderator
and role of the audience that leads to actual productive discussions. Counterpoint. We are
in right now producing a four interview series with this guy Juran Brooke from the iron Rand
Institute. I’m not a Randian as many of you know, I’m not a libertarian or any of this
stuff. I disagree with. You’re on Brooklyn almost every everything. But we have set these
up so that they will be for 30 to 40 minute conversations each with a specific topic,
no interrupting where we can actually give our views and argue against the other’s views. I think that that is going to be a format
that much better will serve learning and figuring out which ideas reigned Supreme for lack of
a better term, and a reference of course, uh, to iron chef so that, that’s where all
sort of leave it. Make sure you’re subscribed to the David Pakman show subreddit. It’s free
and more than 15,000 of you have already done it. David pakman.com/r. E. D. D I. T.




Comments
  1. Revolutionary eh? You mean like Bernie is calling for? You mean the strategy of the most popular political figure in the United States?

  2. Kyle destroyed Kirk, just let him waffle on with his verbal diarrhoea and demolished him with a couple of sentences. Anyone who thinks Kirk won that debate has no conception of the importance of substance over nonsense.

  3. hear you Trump cultists. Here's some proof of Trumps American fascism with all sites sourced.
    (you won't get that at Fox News the white supremacist Flat-Earth War propaganda channel.)
    by Cody Johnston from "Some News."

    https://youtu.be/fIN8oxnw__I

    https://youtu.be/GM1w8_dOcR8

  4. IMO hearing you say Leninist left is super cringy because that’s not what lenninsts means. I don’t like tankies but this is not what tankies are either. Now u wanna say Revolutionaries? Seriously? Just say what you mean dude. Jimmy sore fans, gullible idiots, etc.

  5. David cleared this all up with his response to Carl of Swindle aka sargon of akkad. It was a goddamn university lecture

  6. Long live Israel, the only democracy in the middle east (far more moral than it's oppressing neighbors). long live Biden.

  7. LMFAOOOO David. My god. Imagine a moderate republican trying to play down actual alt-righters. You would be outraged. Nazis are Nazis and tankies are tankies this isn’t difficult.

  8. In my riding in Vancouver, there was both a Marxist Leninist and a Communist candidate. Took me a few more seconds than usual to vote for Trudeau

  9. Leninist left isn't necessarily a bad name. If trotsky would have inherited Lenin's movement, things might be different. Since Stalin did, we'll never know. Lenin wasn't flawless, but Stalin embodied all of the worst things Communism had to offer.

  10. Anarchist would also be revolutionary no? They are certainly not tankies. I just refer to Stalinist as tankies.

  11. I didn't know the term "Tankies" I had to look it up, to find out that it was originally used in Britain to describe those who made excuses and showed support for USSR using tanks against protesters in Hungry ,"tankies" was a pejorative term for those who made excuses for the atrocities committed by the USSR.

  12. These labels aren’t helping anyone. We need to focus on the only dichotomy that matters….reason vs belief. There is a fascist cult running the country and you guys want to waste time adjusting your nametags.

  13. Why not Stalinist or Maoist Left? I just think Revolutionary is way to broad, and I’m in favor of revolution too, just a different sort of revolution.

  14. Anarkiddies are just edgy liberals, Marxist Leninist like the Black Panther Party of the 70s are actually helpful for minority communities unlike liberals and anarchists/libertarian socialists.

  15. I would take some issue with both terms. First, it is unclear as to whom you are referring. If it’s Stalinists & Maoists, specifically, they are ‘Leninists’ in the sense that they subscribe to Marxist-Leninism, the state ideology of the USSR, PRC, & other Communist countries. (Maoism is basically just a Sinified variant of M-Lism.) So, those people, who are also pejoratively referred to as ‘tankies’, (Referring to the Prague Spring of ’68.) are ‘Leninists’, in the sense that they are ML’s. However, these individuals are primarily influenced by Stalin (or Mao Zedong), not V.I. Lenin, who, whatever one thinks of him (and I suspect we would have some differences there), would have been absolutely horrified by Stalin’s reign. As you may know, Lenin tried to get Stalin removed as general secretary, right before his death. Unfortunately, it was too late. Most of Lenin’s contemporary admirers are not, in fact, Marxist-Leninists, and probably detest Stalin. This group would primarily be composed of Trotskyists, but also Left Communists, and a couple of other strands of Marxist thought. (What we on the radical left often refer to as ‘tendencies.’) The term ‘revolutionary left’ is not wrong, but I think it’s overly broad, as such a classification would presumably include all of the aforementioned, as well as Anarchists. All of these groups are, literally, revolutionary, but I just feel like combining Anarchists, Stalinists, etc., into one category obscures the fundamental differences. Of course, it’s entirely possible I may be misunderstanding you, I must confess I did not see the prior video, so I can only speculate.

    Cheers.

  16. I disagree with TRUMP on almost everything, and even the thing I agree with him on isn’t for the same reason. His reason is because he enjoys watching ppl suffer. That’s so disgusting I could vomit just looking at him.

  17. Finally, someone breaks down the bullshit structure of Politicon. A TYT circle jerk of sorts. To this point, TYT needs David and Kyle more than the other way around. Time for them to move on in their own directions.

  18. Revolutionary Left? Leninist Left? Marxist Left? Lol! Who told you that nonsense?
    You sure you haven't confused Lenin with Stalin? Tankies admire Stalin, Mao, the USSR and China…they are a joke, because they jerk off on the state, power and authoritarianism. You literally sound like my dad, no wonder people are calling you a boomer here, like get with the program old man, haha!

  19. "[ . . . ] false claims that she[Gabbard] is anti-Israel."

    I could care left who is "Anti-Israel" other than myself. I'm vehemently "Anti-Israel". I am not Anti-Semitic. I could care less who is or isn't Jewish. The two things are not the same.
    I simply care how horrible Israel's Right-Wing policies are, and how they've violated every treaty ever made with Palestine, the nation who had land taken from them after they won their independence about 20 years prior to having Israel carved out of it in 1948.
    I care how Israel keeps blocking all attempts by Palestine to be recognized as a sovereign nation at the U.N.
    I'm not Pro-Palestine.
    I'm not Pro-Islam.
    Religion and Politics have no business together.

    Palestine is guilty of horrible acts.

    Israel is guilty of much worse atrocities.
    Edit: And by "Anti-Israel", I mean I strongly don't support them, not that I'm wanting to abolish or attack them. I simply want them to stand or fall on their own feet as a sovereign nation. Why should they get any special status that England, France, Norway, or any other nation (not counting the equally Right-Wing Saudi Arabia) gets from us? We can't walk down a street without seeing my fellow veterans begging for change in nearly any city, but we can spend $38.5 Billion (Obama's deal) on a very wealthy foreign nation? Sorry, no. Fix America first, and get rid of the reason sheeple vote for Trump or Clinton.

  20. I’m not sure the term revolutionary left is good either. That would put MLs and Ancoms in the same category and I don’t think that’s accurate.

  21. Yeah.. calling the "tankies" for "revolutionary left" is wrong.
    They aren't the only part of the left who wants a revolution.
    Take the Anarco-communists for as an example.
    Have a revolution led by a coalition of tankies and anarco-communists, then you are begging for a civil war down the line.
    They just don't get along.

    But if they did, then we would not have this discussion. For if they did, then that means a union of the red and black.
    A successful union of the red and black have only happened once. What was that, you ask?
    Oh, just the Russian revolution.

    fyi: That did not end well for the anachists (the black).

  22. David Pakman, we like the term Leftist. Leftist was originally coined by Joy Ann Reid (a piece of shit commentator on MSNBC).
    The formal name we have is Justice Democrat. We have a website:
    https://www.justicedemocrats.com

  23. Those of us who don't like the way the U.S. conducts itself abroad are not "rooting for Russia, China, etc", we're simply holding the U.S. accountable which many Americans would rather not do, rather hypocritically. Understand that if you don't hold the west accountable, your credibility in attacking other countries, which may indeed be worse, is greatly diminished. Also, Americans should not conflate attacks on their sociopathic and punitive domestic policy with those on Europe, as many of us feel European countries are by and large vastly superior in the way they care for their citizenry. The US is uniquely mediocre in a myriad of ways for all but the wealthiest, which when paired with a delusion of superiority can be very dangerous.

  24. Agreed, fuck tankies.
    Revolutionary left is okay, but still not really accurate for tankies.
    Authoritarian left would be more accurate.

  25. I will take Socialism any day over the current crony capitalist system rigged and designed to cater to the 1% who government and country.

    The rich will continue to gather more of the country’s wealth and political power while the mass of ‘Have nots and know nots” grow, unless a revolutionary change occurs.

  26. Are they even relevant? Why speak of them at all?

    We need to be talking about what we do with the Magats after the Democrats regain control of the government.

  27. To paraphrase Woody Allen, I really don't mind the idea of debating a Randite, I just don't want to be there when it happens.

  28. Tankies–had to look that one up, geez, that goes back far before most of your audience was born!

    David, you're right that much of the radical left is not Marxist. Marx favored economic growth, industry, and technology. Many of the watermelons are not really that red on the inside, more like an insipid, pale color. I'm talking about outfits like crimethinc.org, or people who put up posters of Ted Kaczynski. They may not do that much, but I wonder if sometimes they don't just create so much dead weight that they do more harm than the tankies.

  29. I guess that would make David part of the Zio-interventionist center? I swear, this guy NEVER misses an opportunity to punch to the left.

  30. Tankies aren’t really leftist. They’re just larpy dipshits who jack off to Joseph Stalin and Kim Jung Un. They are basically fascist who wear the hammer sickle instead of the swastika.

  31. Listen to PROFESSOR RICHARD WOLFF.

    He’s Harvard, Yale, and Princeton educated and will educate you all on socialism:Marxism

    Turns out we’re all ignorant about it.

  32. I'm a marxist and arguably a revolutionary Communist. I'm not what is now called a Leninist. "Tankies" and I don not get along at all. I don't think revolutionary is a good term for them.
    Edit: Tanies to Tankies

  33. What are you talking about? There's a difference between marxists and Leninists? The Soviets pushed Marxist Leninist philosophy. They are basically the same. And you're entire party is ruled by marxists. Is that not apparent? Socialism is Marxism you idiot, and fascism is socialism. Where the hell do you people learn history and politics, on Facebook? It doesn't even bother you when you are exposed as an imbecile does it?

  34. Marxist is a specific term that refers to a mode of analysis toward capitalism, and does not inherently indicate a solution for those observed problems – you can both be a Marxist and an anarchist, for example, but you cannot be both a Stalinist and an anarchist

    Further, "revolutionary left" is far too ambiguous. MLs (Marxist-Leninists) push state capitalism through authoritarian means as a methodology in bringing about global communist revolution, but that is not the only proposal on the table. Anarchists prefer non-hierarchical, localized and confederized action over unilateral state action, for example. Democratic-Socialists usually do push for political, or generally non violent revolution, through aggressive reforms to existing state structures, as another.

    Just call them tankies

  35. Tankie specifically refers to apologists of atrocities committed by the Soviet Union or other communist states. The whole point of the term was to distinguish communists who opposed aggressive interventions by the Soviet Union and other communists who defended them. If you are using it to describe someone just because they are left of Bernie, you are an idiot or intentionally using a pejorative.

  36. This is great, let’s find kinder more positive names to call communist anti Semitic and anti western radicals, but let’s completely normalize calling anybody from the center to the right racist fascist bigoted ignorant monsters.

  37. "Revolutionary Left" is probably the best term, although most of these lefties is in support of a real popular democracy (as opposed to the political theater that is performed in the so called "Democracies" of the West). As opposed to the revolutionaries of old, most radical leftists acknowledge the fact, that without massive popular support we are just another dictatorial minority, who wants power.

    This is why, from a European leftist standpoint, Bernies strategy is so interesting: He wants all the people, who have given up on politics, to come out and vote, because he is confident that a great majority of Americans actually want some form of democratic hybrid socialism, like the social democracy we have here in Scandinavia. Like us, he is not against capitalism per se, instead he wants to regulate it heavily.

    We have a lot of capitalists here in Denmark, and although they whine a lot (which is only natural, we workers whine a lot too, we just criticize the social democratic status quo from the opposite perspective), they have basically accepted, that their personal wealth is built on the shoulders of their workers. And they have learned that if workers are payed well and taken into account, when the big life-changing decisions are being made, then they are less prone to follow up their demands with a strike. Instead we have strong unions, whose democratically elected representatives negotiate for us.

    Pick any statistic, and you will see that Danish workers practically never strikes, and why, you may ask? Because the most important fundamentals are already in place, we have medicare-for-all, a decent wage, free education and we don't have a industrial-military complex that wants us to go to war all the time. These days we are trying to get money out of politics, it is a slow and tedious battle, and we haven't made a lot of progress yet, but eventually we will get there.

  38. Proud tankie here… We are not pro Tulsi! We just aggressively combat anti-socialist talking points that are so prevalent in American culture.

    Also, western civilization has very problematic and racial constructions. It is also mainly been used by right-wingers and it is completely ahistorical. For example, parts of Lebanon were in the Roman Empire but most of Germany was not part of the Roman empire. So it would be bizarre to refer back to the Roman times and then refer to a "western civilization" that includes modern-day Germany but excludes Lebanon.

  39. Republicans would really shit their pants if they saw a true Leninist person. They know nothing about it. They think MSNBC is Progressive for christ's sake. They don't know what progressive even means. Go home and sulk in your own beer!

  40. From the way I understand it, the difference between Marxism-Leninism and classical Marxism is the concept of a vanguard party. Marx believed that when a society is ready to transition to communism, everyone would simply rise up and force these changes. However, after decades without any such mass revolts despite a belief that the necessary conditions for Marxism had been met, Lenin came up with the idea of a vanguard party, a small group of violent radicals who carry out communist revolution on behalf of the people since they won't instigate it themselves. Vanguard parties were much more effective at waging rebellions and overthrowing governments (Bolsheviks, Khmer Rouge, Viet Cong), but they're also directly responsible for many of communism's greatest atrocities. I think "Leninist" is an appropriate label for tankies since they believe violence and authoritarianism to be necessary conditions for progress.

  41. Shuuuuut the fuck up.
    You know who on the global left has actually had successful revolutions? You know who historically has and currently is actually positioned to challenge US hegemony, and defend themselves from imperialism? Marxist Leninists.
    "Tankies."
    Western leftists attacking Socialists across the globe because they dont "like" their revolutions… Fucking chauvinists.
    Believing western state propaganda and corporate media over the global working class? Pathetic.
    It is peak privelage to say "thats not socialism (or leftism) because it doesnt look the way that I THINK IT SHOULD."
    And what, pray tell, have you accomplished?

  42. On "far leftist" terms I personally sometimes feel like I'm way over there. I do have an idea of what an ideal utopian world would be and it is farther "left" than Bernie Sanders style politics. However Bernieism is on the road to a better society so that's what the fight is now. Revolutionary-left is fine and the debate to be had with standard progressives and liberals is fine as long as we recognize that we are all currently moving in the same direction.

    David should debate these right wing clowns. David you are the most measured and substantive progressive out there right now. Even when you whine about phone call quality you are the most effective progressive voice in my opinion. Drop some logic and knowledge on these right wingers!

  43. Bottom line is…. Capitalism is yet again in crisis, 100+ years of social democracy, reformism, tinkering with the system, has led to reforms in favour of working people, but unless permanent change is achieved, any reforms can be stolen back by the ruling class. Hence Marx's analysis of capitalism, his scientific method, the ideas of socialism are even more relevant today. We need independent mass organisations of the working class, independent of rich backers, in which ideas to change society can be discussed. Bernies campaign could be a catalyst for this.

  44. I definitely wouldn't call it marxist left, not all people who consider themselves marxists are as crazy as actual tankies, there are more moderate interpretations & ideologies based on marxism.

  45. One day Lenins murdering was about atheism, the next day he murdered people because he was 'socialist'. So which is it that murdered millions of his own? Atheism or socialism?
    Or maybe it's because he was a mentally ill serial killer?

  46. Why are people taking about Lenin and Marx? This is Americanism. America has been democratic socialist since the 1790s. Lenin and Marx have nothing to do with it. The level of stupidity in this video is epic.

  47. Revolutionary is a positive term in my opinion. So if this is pointing out negative qualities in a particular part of the far left. I think revolutionary is Bernie Sanders

  48. That criticism of Kyle on politicon was wrong! Charlie Kirk looked like an arrogant right wing mouthpiece that certainly didn't win this debate in the least. In fact Kirk was so insufferable and the way he talks incessantly fast and never shuts up to have any kind of actual debate was annoying. Kyle never looked whiny. That's an insult. He was strong without being a blowhard that thinks he's got the answer to everything. Kyle may have gotten less words in but far more substance and he was clearly correct. I was disgusted by Kirk. I've never watched him speak. He was just unbearable and Kyle got more audience support to be honest. Every time Charlie Brownshirt spoke it was just embarrassing. No young person should think like this douchebag. I don't know where guys this young come from because I see a whole demographic of a generation that is not the old greedy capitalist preening, pro money gushing group of extreme egomaniacs I saw in this guy. I think the number of people that look at Kirk, Shapiro, Rubin, and a sling of others in a positive light is low and for those that like any of them they're probably older. Hell, I'm a Gen Xer and I'm embarrassed for these jackasses. Especially ones in my age demo. I get disgusted when I see peers of mine with ideologies that are so selfish and money hungry. We all like to feel stability and enjoy the comforts in life but that doesn't mean you can't support the poor and working class ideals. Oh and another thing. Not Kyle, David, Michael Brooks or any of the few people I would say make a good opposition to Kirk would have done any different in getting any more points across against this guy. He just rants and never stops running his mouth. Kyle would have had to be even more aggressively rude in order to get equal time. I can't see anyone who is trying to be polite getting any further than Kyle did. David comes across as much more polite and much less confrontational than even Kyle is and the only way a debate with this chump goes anywhere is to bully him into shutting up.

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