The Philosophy of Egoist Anarchism, Ethical Hedonism, and Max Stirner

so this past week in the most recent was episode 6 or episode 7 of orgies in the graveyard was the episode of it I know that but in the episode of sex and science hour I talked about briefly I talked about Max Turner during the the after-show where we cover the Amazon purchases because somebody bought Max Turner's the ego in its own and I you know Stephanie asked me to sum up as quickly as I could like what you know what is Max Turner getting at what says what does he you know what is he pushing and are putting out there and so I talked about that and I've talked about Max Turner for years I talked about it back when I was on free talk live years ago you know I said the ego on its own is the best book on anarchism available today there might be one better out there there there might be one that's that's on par how about I say that and and I think I mentioned it during the section science hour episode but it's a Michelle on phrase the the hedonist manifesto is it just a brilliant little book and in fact in fact he uses one of his examples of how to organize as anarchists is to is he says the is the union of egoist which is what Max Turner talks about in the ego in its own and he said like this is just the most brilliant you know organizational tool that that's ever been devised and I agree I've been saying that forever is that no the way you set up a any kind of society is through Union of egos which can vary in size it doesn't have to be it could be small to be large you know but you just you do it under the auspices of what a union of ego is you know means so anyway the question I got about Max Turner because they do talk so prominently about him was what was on Twitter and out and I'll answer here would you consider Max Turner a libertarian even though property rights wasn't part of his philosophy which emphasizes individuality so that's a great question to bring up okay so first off likes Turner isn't isn't perfect who is but but like even Eagle wisdom which is start you know egoist anarchism which is Turner's philosophy still hat still has left with much to be desired and I think everybody kind of knows that and that's why so many people point to the ego in its own as like just this foundational text that everybody sort of builds off of like even Marx built off of it Rothbart even built off of it Benjamin Tucker built off of it lots of people built off of you know office Turner's works and they give credit where credit's due now of course sometimes when these people build off of it I think they severely misinterpret you know what what's Turner had to say but regardless you know he is he is a foundational kind of character sort of like a Herbert Spencer right Herbert Spencer is another character who I also enjoy and interestingly also was very wishy-washy on property rights but who gets pointed at is in many ways the first libertarian and gets held up as you know like an incredible philosopher among other things so now what I consider Max Turner libertarian no I would not now let's be clear you know to address the more specifics of this you know quick Twitter question max Turner's stance on property rights is that he didn't hold a hard Dogma on them okay and that's almost his exact words is that he didn't have a hard Dogma now that doesn't mean that he didn't think property rights weren't useful his concern was is that property rights and I'll tell you something I agree with this and I've talked about it before on sovereign Tech is that property rights can become their own tyranny like property rights can become such a big deal like that they can become or you know they can be held up as a god and I think a lot of libertarians and anarcho-capitalists do this too where they become harmful to human growth in the human conditional condition in general and harmful to the individual I think and that's this is where this is cut for me kind of my jumping-off point on contra is that what happens with contracts is when everything is based upon you know voluntary contracts well even if they're voluntary who's the enforcement body and also you know like how do you agree on these on these various contracts like the example that I give often enough is that if you have land now there's kind of an answer to this but I'm going to give the example okay is that and this is based off of a comedic story that people tell but this is what I use to explain it okay if somebody bought land from some I don't know libertarian land owners incorporated or some bullshit okay you bought it from them you go to that land and you know and you find that there's like some kind of a squatter or somebody perhaps that has been developing there you know maybe it's like you know 50 some odd acres some crazy amount of acreage and there's somebody that that's been working you know living there working there I don't know for 10 20 years the time the time frame really doesn't matter and you go up to him and say to him hey you know I bought this land from libertarian landowners incorporated get the hell off of my property okay but did this guy you know did this squatter will say whatever like did he agree to that and in fact like you know what's what's what's the situation here like what's the deal like if this guy's on there and he's developed and all this stuff I mean then you know you run into homesteading issues and all this you know becomes an interesting philosophical problem and you know the answer to that is that in some ways the answer for for an caps or for libertarians is that you know libertarian land or land owners incorporated would you know there'd be an escrow as and there'd be a penalty if he found out within say a certain amount of time that the land he was getting was not what libertarian you know that that the individual was buying from libertarian land owners incorporated was not what libertarian land owners incorporated described okay so you could set up maybe like a multi say cryptocurrency you know we're talking about libertarian paradise here okay you can set up some kind of multi-sig where that person would get their money back or they get some kind of deposit back or something once he finds out oh shit there's this guy on here I don't want to kick him out or this isn't exactly what I signed up for however it all shapes up like that that's sort of how you would you would do that is technologically that's how that would get solved but what if the guy doesn't want to give it up like who does that really belong to does it belong deliver did it originally belong to libertarian landowners Inc just because they said so you know and like if this guy is on the land like what you know how do you get rid of this guy what if the guy says no no I want you know what if he calls up the individual that bought the land that has the title that has the contract oh you know calls up libertarian landowners Inc it says you need to get this guy off the fucking property so then you have to have an enforcement body around that contract but the guy that's on the property he didn't agree to that shit and there's no requirement for him to agree to that stuff unless you're going to start building fences everywhere and you know I don't laser fences or something to you know to keep all these I mean like it turns I think you can see where this is going while there are some degree of solutions I think that that could be done that that allow for a peaceful resolution there's other solutions that lend itself to tyranny in my opinion because you're going to have to have an enforcement body around like say contracts and all this different stuff and contract you know is to some people is like the basis of how you know private property would work you know in a libertarian paradise you know that's that's how it would be arbitrated whatever else okay but that enforcement body becomes a really big issue and this is a huge issue with I mean lots of people are trying to get into this a theory 'im bit nation like there's a there's a ton of blockchain projects that are trying to get into where you know they are you know they're becoming the contract organization and all this and so it's like oh okay so you can put your land title on aetherium all right who's enforcing that land title aetherium drones becomes a huge issue like there aren't exactly answers for that so that's that's where I agree with Max Turner that with property rights while he did wasn't against them he didn't have like I said he didn't have a hard dogma or he didn't want them to be a hard Dogma because he envisioned and I think properly how they could be used how property rights could become its own form of tyranny against the individual I mean it you know that this conversation could go on forever because we could talk about how you know what exactly like like okay as long as this voluntary right that's everybody gets all hot and bothered about hey Wells if they signed it that's it it's over they turned it over you know like like you know and what like what define cores like define voluntary like some you know like manipulation I mean like when does that come into play like I mean there's a lot there's there's a whole libertarians and and caps make this stuff try to make the stuff so cut and dry you know they try to think why it's just it's simple it's simple when these things are incredibly complex and often really the only way you can handle any situation is case-by-case you can disagree with me that's okay I don't mind if people disagree with me alright but I'm just saying that there's you know a lot of things that I hear as far as being solutions that ah that doesn't sound very free to me that doesn't sound very voluntary to me you know or I can see where it wouldn't exactly be voluntary and and in those cases it becomes it becomes very problematic I mean let me describe this so like I said I you know self-described as a as an egoist anarchist just because it's the best term around you know that I can that I can run with and I don't really have there was a time where I would have called myself an anarcho-capitalist I suppose like I don't really necessarily have a problem with a lot of the basic tenants of anarcho-capitalism my problem with anarcho-capitalism is first off is the solutions that get laid out I think they're terrible I really haven't heard any good ones not really you know for for like okay well how do we handle things in a stateless society every book that I've read and I've read most of them especially from an Capps including lesser-known authors that are moronic you know I like the solutions are horrendous they're terrible they are just set up for exploitation which is exactly what people say is the problem capitalism is that it exploits and it's like well yeah I mean honestly even under anarcho-capitalism mean though they say well no you can add blah blah but you do this under anarcho-capitalism salt gonna be fine buh-bye whoa paradise even though they say that like it just it's so it's so setup for exploitation and honestly when you look at so many of the people not all I know of lots of great people that that call themselves anarcho-capitalists I really do but like the people that that have any kind of say mouthpiece they're scum like they are the scum of the fucking earth or they're just they're just stupid like I know I don't know many of them that I that I have a whole lot of respect for I mean they are so bad like you read their post and it's like wow or even like you yeah like follow them on social media and like the traumas on display it's like you're telling people how to act when you know if we ever get to a stateless society you're saying this is how things should be or you can do this or you could do that and baby you don't have shit figure it out and it's and it's so readily apparent that you don't it's so bad so you know anarcho-capitalism at its base level I guess is fine I'm not saying that it's the best system out there but okay but the people the solutions that you talked about oh fuck that don't sign me up to to like be associated with those assholes oh so anyway yeah I would got in a bit of a tire T I wouldn't I would not describe max Turner as a libertarian libertarianism owes Max Turner a debt you know not like an actual debt they don't have to give him any gold or Bitcoin okay not that they could but like they you know libertarianism is certainly a step on the shoulders that that is Max Turner you know that is the ego in its own I mean and all that said like and I think I talked about this at the end of last week sex and science our like I worry because there's in my opinion there are a lot of people that absolutely do not get the ego on its own they do not get egoism they do not get Max Turner like I don't know if they only read half the book or what happened but they they are missing the boat like all the way you know I mean they really are now if you want me to quickly like I guess get into what exactly I mean this is this is what I got it and we got some email about it like because the way I described you know how would I describe egoist anarchism how would I describe what Max Turner is pushing I tried to make it as short as I could but it's it's practically impossible to make it really short and it sounds it doesn't sound it may not it might not sound pretty or appealing in very short form there's a reason the ego in its own is such a massive tone it's such a huge book is because there's so much to cover like you have to break down all the spooks which spooks are like I mean spooks are effectively saying no this isn't rooted in science or reality this doesn't actually exist like government is a spook religion is a spook all kinds of thing and there's lots of people that honestly are spooks that are very real way or at least what they espouse is is what they say spooky so you know you have the concept of spooks you have the union of egos which the union of egoist is is that you you have a common goal okay or a joint a shared goal that you're trying to achieve with other people okay and if at any buzzient necessarily have to be a goal but you know maybe you have a shared standard that you're that you're uplifting that you're promoting that you're wanting to live but here's the here's the rub is that anybody has to be able to leave that at any given time with no consequence like like they need to be able to leave that intact and then the Union is broken thereafter okay this is you know this is kind of the thing this this gets back to like some ideas for blockchains where people are like oh yeah we want to make digital citizenship and all this different stuff and it's like okay well what if I want to move from aetherium to another blockchain can I take my stuff over or will we end up like with what happened with Ripple where when somebody wants to cash out and it's a whole lot of money no you're going to crash system we can't let you do that bit buddy sorry you know you you can't just leave and so then you know blockchain or digital citizenship becomes you know again it becomes kind of an its own little tyranny right because you can't just walk away even if it's private and voluntary that becomes problematic so the union of ego is so so important to study and and I think any form of anarchism can make use of that you don't have to be an egoist you know to take advantage of the union of egos in fact I I've been right up about this on GOG down in John my website at one point like Elon Musk not that I want to give him any credit but he was talking about how he thinks businesses should be set up in all this and his like you know his idea for the best way of business to run was effectively Union of egos and in other people if kind of said that you know have espoused similar ideas so shiok recei some others where it's kind of a you know union of egoists and all this so that's a great idea that's something that you can take a you know take anywhere so you have the spooks you have union of ego is how man there's like so many so many different concepts to get into but at the base level and this is what I said on sex and science our that some people emailed about now I'll just kind of address it here again I was trying to be short so you know you can't you can't really get into the nitty-gritty of what everything means but effectively egoism egoist anarchism is just saying look the individual is the thing matters everything else is absolutely secondary all that matters is the ineffable the individual what that is okay so nations don't matter your religion doesn't matter your morals honestly don't matter and it's true morality whereas morality in science I mean yeah there's things like empathy and science sure like you know rats have empathy I mean you can go down that sort of stuff but like where is the idea you know where is various morality or where is like the concept of rights like the right to bear arms what are you talking about like where in science is it that you know what what is the scientific proof that you have the right to a gun or a sword there is no scientist you don't need that right doesn't exist okay I'm not saying it's a bit you know I'm not saying it's an evil thing I'm just saying that let's be clear here it is just it is like money to where it's something that everybody's just sort of agreeing upon or at least some people are agreeing upon but it's not something that if you're you know two three people stranded on a desert island a rest of humanity was gone or something like that like okay where does the right come from to you know to where like you are you absolutely must have a gun or something like they're not not that you must have but you know what I mean or like even privacy like where what is the scientific basis for that now I mean you can say that privacy is better off you know had the ability to have privacy is great for the human condition sure but where is the concept that humans must have this or you get to start shooting and offing other people right because that's that's the ultimate end of rights infringement where is that it doesn't exist you know that's why you have to base rights on God or some people like to base it on on humanity but again we're like we're in your biological code you know does it say I I I'm guaranteed this this this this this it's not there I'm not saying you're bad ideas they're great ideas yes I think people should have the liberty of privacy I don't like to use the word rights you know I think people should have the Liberty to own whatever property you know that they can get their hands whatever okay if that ends up being a gun or something like that fine that's a property issue okay you know all these different things I think they're great but let's be clear that you know it's it's a human construct it's not a part of the universe okay and so that's what max Turner is getting at when he talks about spooks and all these other things or when he talks about how there shouldn't be property rights or not that there shouldn't be but that you know property rights be careful with those you know or when he talks about like morale there is no morality right there isn't like the universe doesn't have a government you know to tell people what to do or you know I mean like there's oh it's such a cotton see what I mean it's so tough to kind of talk about this but I hope you get my point now that doesn't mean you're annihilist either that just means that you're I mean to some degree I hate to use this term because that's what everybody says whenever they say they're not this okay but you are being a realist in that no there is like you can't measure the you know the right to privacy scientifically okay so it doesn't exist anyway so you know that's where that sort of thing comes in and I'm going into overtime I don't want to spend too much longer on this so but my description was is that Max Turner you know egoist anarchism is effectively that might is right okay meaning that whatever the individual can do he can do but and this is where I think people forget is they they don't read what Max Turner has to say about love because he talks about how I feel and he's describing empathy whether he realizes it or not I feel what my brother feels I've you know I feel not not literally or you know not not like some kind of quantum entanglement but just in the fact that you know you know you have empathy you know what another human what another human feels okay that's as long as you still have empathy anyway which I think anybody can work those muscles so you don't want to hurt another human because you know you just that's how you want to be treated right it's the golden rule the Platinum rule whichever one you want to run with I like the Platinum rule a little bit better so so yeah might is right but at the same time you know Mike is like I said tempered by love and empathy okay and that's how you empower the individual now you can do unions of you know unions of egoists all you want that have perhaps little rules or you know little little I agreed upon ideas or whatever that go beyond that in how individuals are going to treat each other okay but at the at the very base level you have this very simple individual I mean you really do have a simplicity in that the individual is everything you know you are you yes you are the most important thing in the universe but so am i or equally because we're individuals we're equally you know all a valid in port and you can treat each other as such okay so well because because you here might is right and you start freaking out it's like whoa what the fucking says what are you talking about all this terrible so so the government's legitimate not at all the government is absolutely illegitimate the individual is the only thing that's illegitimate okay so but then you've got you know we have the problem where people are reenacting traumas you know and all this different stuff to where they don't treat themselves or other individuals in the way that you know that that is most that is most effective to our you know most effective for human growth and for human happiness which happiness is the ultimate goal which is another huge part of what Max Turner has to say so and that that's not like a utilitarian argument necessarily even though utilitarianism has a really bad rap as well that people don't understand when they read Bentham or mill they don't quite get the nuance of what they were talking about when they talk about utilitarianism not saying I'm a utilitarian NIST or whatever those whatever you want to call that but again it all comes down to the fact that people a lot of people really just know this stuff or no of these ideas or think of these terms and they they know it based upon how someone else analyzed it and not based upon their own research that goes true from externa that goes true for all kind you know like I just mentioned maybe even bent them and mil or Nietzsche or I mentioned Michele on Friday earlier I mean you know a bunch of people like they never actually read her they never read Marx or you know I said this in a recent patreon episode it's like look you know there's really more than one communism guess what I know you wanted to lump it all up into one but just like how there's a bunch of different ways that capitalism gets used and some of those you know anarcho-capitalist would say ISM is improper right like there's crony capitalism well guess what there's just crony communism okay you know not everybody agrees with Marx there's lots of Communists who more you know are in the camp of you know bakunin and in you know Peter Kropotkin which Kropotkin 's work is phenomenal I mean a lot of what he has to say I hope every capitalist reads that shit and takes it to heart because he's right in a lot of what he has to say you know and how we treat each other as humans and all this so you know there's there's multiple forms of that but most people don't know they just they got Konnie Huq communists give me a break and I'm not even a communist but that doesn't mean I you know I'm not intrigued by what these people actually think instead of just listening to and with all due respect because I love her work instead of just listening to you know looking at it all through the lens of ein Rand or through the lens of rothbard or through the lens of woods or some other dipshit I mean if you want to trust them trust them fine but guess what you might find out that people think differently than the way that that some of these other versions of anarchism get parlayed you know like that that that they don't know I actually they don't subscribe to the way that Woods describes it or the way that Rothbart describes it or the way that you know even Mises describes it even though Mises is you know a lot of socialists actually really like muses I bet you didn't know that they do but anyway I've gone on too long with this so question everything that's the order of the day question everything I hope that I hope that kind of explains it yeah so I mean just again in brief Max Turner not a libertarian yes you know libertarians have learned a lot from just like Herbert Spencer I really don't think he's a he's a libertarian not not the libertarianism that Americans talk about you know libertarianism originally in its original use was actually a term for communist it was not a term for capitalist so you could say delivered maybe more libertarians in that way but again you know sterner as much as even some ass Turner's fans say to the opposite cerner wasn't espousing any kind of culture any kind of economy really he was just saying look you have to hold up the individual in the individual alone the ineffable one you know and that being you particularly so there you have it I hope I explained that in in some kind of fashion that that made sense for you but you can ask more specific questions if you want and please if you disagree with anything I'm saying message me okay maybe you can change my mind I actually have a very open mind okay that's why I'm willing to read books from people that that are part of either economic persuasions or philosophical persuasions that I don't share unlike I mean it's where you know in my opinion I see a lot of you know end caps or libertarians and they are so fucking close minded and and of course whenever you call them out it's like well don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out to quote to quote another asshat that is not an argument and it's not that's horseshit so anyway and I don't like to quote the person that I just quoted because not a fan but anyway now let's get into all right so I'll pull up the question here and it's hey Brian another question for you since you've mentioned it in the past I wonder if you could talk about hedonism your definition what it means to you how you put it into practice in your everyday life how you came to it whatever you feel like discussing so and I responded to this person quickly and just said yeah you know I'll get to I think I'll get to that in a QA and based off of last week's conversation I think it's a good one to have now as well but I've promised this for such a long time and I have and I think I talked about this in a recent Q&A as well I have a lot of little episodes that like I need to finish in that I just you know like that I really want to be very well done you know I want to be very well laid out things that you could potentially in the future I mean at first they'd be patriotic content or at very least you yourself could take the information and talk to other people about it like I want kind of complete cases made you know not just simple 20 minutes on a podcast or something like that but like full like almost almost a course on a subject okay and one of the ones I've wanted to do for a long time that I've worked on I have you know quite a bit of it done and I just I keep wanting to add more and I want I just like I really want to like address the critics you know with it and all that without having to really do another episode on it or something and the one is hedonism because probably people say this kind of shit all the time but I have other than unfortunate times where I fell to the lure of religion which I won't let happen again done a little too much work on myself too you know to make sure that my whole life I've been a hedonist before I just you know self-described as many other isms you know even anarchist and all that you know I've been a hedonist and so it's a subject that that I really it deserves such a great exploration and it's so hard to find great explorations of it in the English language quite frankly there are other philosophers you know P I mean you and I mean that in the AB that term not in the specific like referencing to a bunch of idiots at FDR or something you know that like that have covered it perhaps far better than I ever could but I you know I'm not the best person to translate their work by any means so you know so the person you know here's asked me about hedonism what's my definition of it what do I mean by it you know how do I apply it blah blah blah blah blah so I am going to touch on this subject I am going to get into it here and this is not going to be like a complete case by any means that is something I am working on I'd like to release in the future but I am going to I am going to describe it now why don't we start with definitions okay and I'll actually r-rock Wikipedia on this one because I think their definition is fine and dandy of you know the overall meaning of hedonism because it is important to say that a lot of people have a lot of different definitions of what exactly hedonism means okay there's there is a hedonism that has to do with technology which I'm not saying I'm opposed to but that's not what I mean when I talk about hedonism like there's the idea that we build medicine or you know that we create medicines or you know drugs or weaker or we create technologies or something else to where you you know you literally remove the human capacity for feeling pain that is one definition of hedonism that is not the one that I subscribe to okay and I'm not saying I am opposed to those people I'm not saying I'm really four of them either alright but we gotta you got to understand that like so many isms capitalism communism environmentalism even you know a lot of these different things there are a bunch of different meanings even ones that some people think is pure that I talked about many times and proven that it's not voluntourism or voluntary ISM whichever way you want to you know say it okay there are people who call themselves volunteers that vote the person that invented the term Carl Wagner said that electoral politics have no part in volunteerism so obviously you have to volunteer isms so it's really important with any I mean in fact this is kind of fitting to mention them you know what did Socrates say that the beginning of wisdom is the definition of terms this is true okay and so I'm happy to describe even even briefly here in this QA what I mean by hedonism alright but you know I want you to know that yes there are a lot of there people use the term hedonism for all kinds of things and there's not just one hedonism I think there's one kind of abstract sort of definition that people say I don't want to say we're fine but that they they Forge into whatever their own goals are okay but just like you know epicureanism okay is a version of hedonism it is one type of hedonism it is not the only type of hedonism so why don't all right why don't I read the definition here the abstract definition that I have no issue with and this is directly from Wikipedia hedonism is a school of thought that argues that pleasure and happiness are the primary or most important intrinsic goods in the proper aim of human life a hedonist strives to maximize net pleasure pleasure – pain so let's be clear on what exact like like how could people twist like such such a simple definition or not twist but use such a simple abstract as what we just read okay now there are people who so like take epicureanism okay which I don't you know somebody called me an epicurean I wouldn't take much umbrage with that I don't think that it exactly describes me perfectly though Epicurious was brilliant and there's definitely a lot of what he had to say through a hedonist lens that that was so far ahead of his time that it makes you wonder I'm not going to tell you what it makes you wonder but it makes you wonder but okay so epicureanism like that version of hedonism is not the idea that is not necessarily debauchery it is not the idea that you like that you just go out there and you go seek every single passion you know fulfill every passion you have in a given moment you know and devil-may-care right all that okay that that's not what Epicureanism says or espouses as a hedonistic philosophy when it espouses is is that you take steps in life to experience the least amount of pain that is wholly different from going out and seeking a good time or you know all all the wild pleasures and all that like those are two totally fucking different things but your average run-of-the-mill conservative or even liberal or you know even your average run-of-the-mill libertarian but I repeat myself seemingly on all counts these days doesn't understand don't seem to understand that like that those are very different things now I'm not opposed to either like I mean if you want to if that's like the life you want to lead is going out and just you know fulfilling every single little desire you have rock-and-roll you go for it I won't judge you for that you go do your thing I don't care okay if your goal in life is to minimize pain go for baby who would argue with that well I imagine there are people who would they were called stones but that's not but we'll save that for a little bit later in this conversation okay all you know those those definitions are really fine but also neither of those really stand in contrast to the notion that you know pleasure and happiness are the ultimate goals in life which interestingly enough also iron ran said was the ultimate goal course she had you know how do you get to that and you know how you get to that is through productive achievement you know living the heroic life and all this which is in many ways in my opinion anyway that's just another form of hedonism in a very real sense I don't think you could say that capital o objectivism is a hedonism but I would argue with you that little o objectivism okay which you know capital o Jeff vism is you know Leonard Peikoff saw his shit you know yay government you know if you don't have government you're just going to get taking over by the next warlord blah blah blah you know all that crap which I don't agree with it all but but you know the more of the existentialism that is you know small o objectivism you know a lot of the more you know kind of the the three axioms that that you know Iran would espouse not so much the political stuff like you know praising IP which that's nonsense but you know going by the three axioms you know existence identity you know all that you know a lot of that I think that's that's effectively hedonism I mean she was really pushing epicureanism in a very real sense I mean she had some other parts that were just crazy like women can't can't be in charge or you know stuff like this I mean it was damned odd frankly haha but but you know so it just brings to my brings up my point that under this abstract notion of what hedonism is okay which is again the school of thought that argues that pleasure and happiness are the primary and most important intrinsic goals in the proper aim of human life you can come up with all these wild different philosophies or philosophical schools so keep that in mind that when somebody says what do you mean by yeah I mean when somebody says I'm a hedonist you need to ask them well what do you mean by that like what is your school of hedonism you know exactly so I want to read I like this next paragraph in Wikipedia so I'm going to read that and it is ethical hedonism is the idea that all people have the right to do everything in their power to achieve the greatest amount of pleasure possible to them it is also the idea that every person's pleasure should far surpass their amount of pain ethical hedonism is said to have been started by eros tipis of Cyrene a student of Socrates we just mentioned he held the idea that pleasure is the highest good now there you go there is the start of what I mean by hedonism this ethical hedonism okay and it plays off very nicely if you listen to last week's Q a when we talk about what Max Turner was espousing this falls right in with egoism you know this idea that that your pleasure you are most important thing in the universe right that that's the whole tentative egoism of course then so is everybody else so this ethical hedonism is is really important and so I want to I'm going to give a little bit of history and then I want to talk about personal application and what it means for me and where I first came upon hedonism in fact maybe I'll start with that how did I come upon hedonism what was my first experience with hedonism well it certainly wasn't from reading Erebus of cyrene nor wasn't reading you know like the art of happiness by by Epicurus my my first experience there was a Christian book the title is escaping me at the moment I have to I'll admit that but there is a Christian book that talked about how he did it and this is in the 90s how hedonism was taking over America and I read this now there are other life forces you know other confluences of events that were happening that that really you know kind of brought me to this but I read this book as a young Christian and everything in this book that the guy that the author was saying it was a pastor or something that the author was saying was bad I'm actually I've shared I've shared a picture of this book let me let me see let me see if I can look it up quick I want to get the title for you well I can't seem to find it I know I have a digital copy of it because it was kind of such an important in a way such an important book unfortunately can't remember the exact title of it but anyway everything that this guy described in this book that was evil I was like wait a second but that's what I want to do like I want to do that you know like this is the life I kind of want to lead like it was it's funny because the book was supposed to scare you and supposed to say oh you got to stay with Christ because otherwise you'll end up like this and I'm like no I wonder if I could end up like that and so then I started and the guy you know he brings in he talks about eros tipis he talks about Epicurus and he talks about some of the opponents to like a potatoes and some others and so I start reading all these people and woo I mean you know I'm reading you know I'm reading Epicurus and I'm even not that there's really anything left of a varus tip as much anyway but you know what you could find out of like some Greek books most of the works you find about eros tipis you find out through actually like through the Nicene and ante-nicene fathers like you like it comes from reading either Christian texts that that critique or it comes from like reading Plato or some of these other guys he usually comes from critiques you never find the autographs from these guys probably because hedonism in my opinion and I'm just laying this out here before I even get into you know a lot more of hedonism but probably because hedonism actually sets people free and philosophers of the past 2,000 years don't want that even philosophers today who say want you to vote for Trump are all about control and so they hate hedonism because that's about actually being free in fact there's even there's writings of where air stiffest God I think I think it's an Aristotle might be talked about it but you know we're stiffest gets in arguments with some of the most popular philosophers of the day Plato and a bunch of them and these guys who you think are so logical and cool and collective right you know Plato and whoever else they you know it's reported that they were just furious over having arguments with their are stiffest but eros tempest was the one who was cool as a cucumber he was cool as the breeze that's interesting because maybe because Plato couldn't win against the philosophy of hedonism maybe because a lot of these other guys oh shit can't handle that I mean in there all outcrops of Socrates anyway err stiffest was a student of Socrates so I read that book and then I started actually researching the the actual thing and it wasn't necessarily the best foundation of it especially reading Epicurus even though the art of happiness is a wonderful book in so many ways and actually Epicurus as I've said on cybertek a few times whenever brought him up like he keeps get kind of getting proven right even when you thought that because eres sorry in higher six Epicurus was an animist you know all into scientific materialism and all that right and like a lot of his notions end up being right like even the concept you know there's new there's a lot of not a lot there are new theories out there that the universe actually has no beginning and no end like that that time has just kind of always been Epicurus said that there's other things where you know he seems to like get proven right much later on and of course that's because finally some people are getting away you know from from Christianity or you know from from the the stranglehold shall we say of religion uh so anyway you know not the best foundation but I came back to it once I see because I became a Christian again I don't want to get into my you know my whole life story on that again but after I got out of the military and you know I finally snapped out of the haze of war effectively you know I came back to hedonism and atheism which those are the so this is worth bringing up to I heated ISM and atheism are part parcel like they are they are so intertwined I could imagine some others that like the idea of Colonel Christians who think that you know because like Romans nine they get to do whatever the hell they want that in fact sinning makes them greater in God's eyes you know as long as you keep going for forgiveness because they they misconstrued quote by the Apostle Paul I'm not talking about them but there are Christians who I think it was his name Piper John Piper who was is I don't even know if he's still alive a very very famous Calvinist pastor and he believes in what or he has what's called a Christian hedonism which is the idea that you do everything to the pleasure of Christ like everything is for the pleasure of Christ whoo even when I was Christian and I heard that I was like there's this something a little off about that like you know and using that term because that just doesn't that that's really and I get it John Piper was trying to sell books and he was trying to be controversial by using the word hedonist but that those two those two terms just shouldn't even belong to each other not not not in any any way shape form so hedonism is it you know it is very much intertwined you know with atheism so as I came to atheism I I think the logic logical extension of atheism is hedonism and you know vice versa and all this if I end up losing losing track talking this is such a huge subject I'm trying to really like boil it down you know quickly but I just want you to know my point in talking about that was in saying that there are people who claim to be Christian hedonist but it's not what you think and even if it is what you think they are fucking dead wrong like by their own translation of their books they're just they're crazy so now i alright yeah shift it up so now I mentioned Eris tipis of Cyrene now you got to be careful okay because there's actually two erysipelas there's Eris tip I there's air snippets of Cyrene and then there's Eris tipis the younger okay and actually in a lot of and here's where it becomes a problem you may be able to tell that difference but historians often or you know even like more antiquated historians have a hard time to where a lot of things that may have actually been set by airstrips of Cyrene get attributed to era stair-step as the younger who is the grandson of Erised episode Cyrene era snippets the younger is the daughter of a reader is the son of airstrips of Cyrene's daughter his daughter being a et now or et is I mean her story Alone's phenomenal like you can almost skip the air snippet I have you could go right to arethey because here you know we're talking about a woman in you know like the 4th century 3rd 4th century BCE who was the writer of 40 books she was a professional philosopher and here's the deal it's not like there weren't other female philosophers but that she made her living off of being one that was a exception why was that exceptional how was she able to do that well you know if you wanna if you want to equate something is it because her message resonated with people so much and here's the problem we don't really know what her message was we can only assume that because eros tipis of Syre because her father was kind of the first guy attributed with hedonism we don't have a whole lot of his writings so I'm going to mention a couple things that he said that I think you'll appreciate okay you know even though you have eros Tippa so of Cyrene you know it and since air stiffest the younger also carried on the heat in his tradition who we don't have a whole lot of his writings either other than you know we kind of have ideas that he sort of systematized he demand hedonism in a way you would assume that eros tip is the younger just learned what was passed down from era stiffest you know the elder to his mother arena so for somehow she made a living as a woman doing that now one could argue is that eros tip is because of it because of you know his philosophy of hedonism that pleasure you know is is the ultimate kind of human good and in that you you know all things flow from that that perhaps he came to a lot of very interesting conclusions like equality of the sexes you know among other things you know and so that perhaps that allowed him to be such tremendous parent that arre tea ends up becoming a you know a wild success at a time when women were not to be wild successes much like Hypatia who we learn about later during the Library of Alexandria even up to hi patient's day it was still rare for a woman you know to be a teacher and to be a philosopher you know in and well unfortunately we know what happened to high patient burn Enola you know dragged out into the streets and who knows what else stone perhaps burned alive as the Library of Alexandria was destroyed by various religious zealots so I mean you know you look at these lives and you have to wonder how much how big a part is I mean one would argue that philosophy you know says everything about one's life and so you know what what do you have here that that comes out of that and well III think it's interesting to you know to look at the lives of these people but anyway so so ret is a suspect success story in and of herself and it perhaps it speaks to the success of the philosophy of hedonism itself and I'm being very short here I'm not going like really really deep on a lot of this folks so if you're going to say I'm doing some kind of fallacy go ahead tell me and maybe I'll address it quick because I'm not okay I have a lot more than I could say based upon everything I mean I can do I can do it an hour I can do four hours on every single name that I brought up so far okay I'm trying to be quick here I'm trying to like trying to keep it condensed so anyway let's talk let's go to Aris tipis of cyrene who is arguably the guy that kind of started this whole shtick one of my favorite quotes from err status of cyrene is wise people even though all laws were abolished would still lead the same life now that's that's a very popular quote just particularly on the internet which doesn't I mean which makes a lot of sense because especially the early internet which was very anarchistic and I mean that's as anarchist as it gets saying that look you'd laws don't make men laws don't make society laws don't make civilization wisdom does knowledge does how about this one a wise man's country is the world let's I've got like a whole list here these are just these are beautiful beautiful quotes it is better to be a beggar than ignorant for the beggar only wants money but an ignorant person wants humanity what does that mean anyway you could go on and on with with air establishes life I mean just a just wild why you know what some wild stories to be had where seemingly a very clever guy and it's funny because he gets written about mainly by detractors and the detractors missed that he was ripping on them like right left and he was making fools and asses of them it's it's it's really quite the thing so now that doesn't mean that Eris tipis also wasn't a guy that you know went about enjoying extravagance and courtesans and you know all this other stuff there's some things that were laid against him that I think were work completely inaccurate and you could tell kind of within the writing say by some of these you know some of this philosophical enemies that they were trying to do a smear piece but then you know between the lines you could see where there was the truth of it so Eris dip is an interesting character to look at as far as coming up with a lot of this stuff and was certainly a lot of thought in the ancient world again most of these writings are you know we talk about the Library of Alexandria and I mean it wasn't just the Library of Alexandria at the library Pergamum you have tons of them where a lot of these writings are just lost and they're gone and you can kind of see why maybe you know some people get conspiratorial around the Library of Alexandria because it spoke against the power of the day and that people might soon figure out holy shit you know perhaps everybody would become anarchists who knows or something like that I mean you know I'm kind of transposing some of my own ideas on them certainly I can I can admit to that my bias may be creeping in okay but hedonism in and of itself is anti power at least power over the individual it is power for the individual but it is power you know it is against power that stands against the individual you know saying I mean even even the power not just government but even the power of like social mores which I talk about all the time you know to where hedonism is like okay well ya know that's something you want to do you can do it as long as you can do it don't go don't go using anybody else's shit but as long as you can do it do it uh as to where you know a lot of social workers would say no don't do that you can't you can't just go but fuck somebody are you kidding me that's terrible it's horrendous that's against God yada yada yada yada yada yada yada and maybe that's in some ways you know the way hedonism is best understood using contrast to a lot of its a lot of its detractors and a lot of its opposition perhaps the most popular opposition and now I want to get into I want to get into I guess I should see I'm all over the place you can see why I was doing a two-hour show about this okay I want to get into kind of how I apply it in my own life that was something that was described what exactly means for me and all that I do want to get into that but I want to just discuss like that there's some people who say well you know what about the Stoics because stoicism seems to be a very popular thing in libertarianism and anarchism these days I don't know why but but it is now here's the thing here's here's the primary thing to understand about stoicism okay and I've read epictetus I you know I I know the works okay here's the primary thing that people miss is that stoicism says to you that your your actions today what you do today like that that you need to think about the future you need to think about tomorrow not just tomorrow is in literally 24 hours from now you need to think about when you're gone and how you're going to affect the world there is in stoicism there is this kind of inherent idea that you owe something to the future that it is it is it behooves you more than it behooves you it is the proper way to live that say you leave the world a better place than when you came into it now I'm not saying that that's a bad idea but what I am saying is that there is absolutely no there's no I don't know uh what's the word I'm looking for I don't like there's no rule there's a law there's no part of your biological code that says you are required as a human being to make sure that the world is better as you go where is that like tell me the science behind that like so so I mean give me the scientific principle break out your scientific method show me where exactly it says that you are required as a human being that this is part of your human make up to be a good human being whatever the fuck that means that you have to make the world a better place no it's not there I'm not saying it's a bad idea I'm just saying it doesn't exist stoicism is a philosophy like that is one of the the undercurrents of stoicism and that's horseshit now does human pleasure exist fuck yeah what do you think you have all these sensory organs for it is a part of the biological makeup of who you are you could say pain is as well I understand that but then that's that that becomes the choice that becomes where the human the human creature goes beyond instinct and says do I want more pleasure do I want our pain or is there something you know intermix there perhaps for some people you know kind of quantum existence of human beings there is nothing in stoicism that I mean it has no scientific bearing whatsoever as for hedonism has a shit-ton now can we move on beyond our our biology and all that sure of course we can that's that's why we have choice you can choose to live a stoic life that's fine but you can't say I agree with stoicism so then I'm going to pick up some stupid fucking book that says oh I'm an archetype or I'm a k-type that you know human being and then you know this this fits right in with my philosophy and all that and this is biological this is how you you make things successful okay this is how civilization goes on because once we're Stoics civilization moves on well here's your problem here's your next problem now I'm not even getting into the biology of the matter okay here's your problem with your stoicism and your problem with really any almost any other philosophy outside of hedonism you can choose it that's fine but when you start saying that that's how you have a great civilization is when you you know apply these these little personal philosophical rules you know and then this personal philosophy and all that you know writ large that somehow everything's okay guess what history is not on your side you do not find stoicism you do not find a lot of you lookin serve Tizen IDE ia's you don't find them at the very start of civilization which I would think your argument that somehow these are what saved civilization would preclude that well what exactly it say the first civilizations we know of in you know inert in human history that being say Sumer right the Sumerians or ancient Egypt or something do you find these things there at the very start of you know these quantum these very real quantum leaps in human existence you know coming out of the Paleolithic into the Neolithic and all this what do you find you don't find stoicism you don't find a lot of these other philosophies but you do find hedonism oddly enough here's one of the first quotes out of Sumer okay and it's right out of the Epic of Gilgamesh which I know I'd been wanting to release the epic of gilgamesh for a while but I've yet to anyway there's a character in it acid Ori who gives the following advice quote fill your belly day and night make merry let days be full of joy dance and make music day and night these things alone are the concern of men I mean that's that's fucking hedonism in a nutshell enjoy life your life now you not the life of the next people look you know this is something where I think I and ran was so spot-on okay she said when I die it's not my life that will end but the world will end and that's absolutely true and what she means by that is like it's over when you're dead you have nothing to do with the world like I mean it's just it's done and done you're the world for you it has effectively ended it's not you that will die it is the world that will end that that was that was I in rands point and I think there's a lot there's imeem that's so true you don't owe the future anything you can choose to but you but there's no like grand law and there's no evidence whatsoever historically that somehow if you know if you engage in anything other than you know constantly thinking about the future having a family doing all this shit blah blah blah blah blah that somehow things are going to end up so much worse I would argue quite the opposite because the anti hedonism philosophies have been the ones that have really really you know kind of carried on through time why did they carry on well because all the hedonist books got burned but they're the ones that have carried on through time and you want to tell me that oh I get you Wow you know how wonderful this is blah blah blah blah blah I would argue with you that what really happened was is that say like during the Enlightenment what happened during the Enlightenment was suddenly people started you know like so you had scientists that the kind of the purpose behind the renaissance enlightenment and all this was alright we need to we have this incredible tool called science that we're discovering and this consistency of existence in the universe and so we're going to take that and we are going to you know we're going to start applying it how can we prove God and of course what happened is is they found out they disprove God during the Enlightenment okay and they started you know when they started using a scientific method here there and everywhere okay suddenly they start saying wait a second what about this whole individualism thing because that's when a lot of the shit starts to crop up is at the same time any of the advancements you have today okay that you think are good really kind of came out of a lot of those varying thinkers okay you know say anywhere between the 12th or well I guess maybe 13th to say 17th century something like this right okay but those people you know those ideas were you know very individualistic and honestly a lot of them are very hedonistic I mean you look at you know the monks of men ham I mean like that you know Hellfire things like the Hellfire Club and stuff like this where people were yet allowing their passions to finally get expressed I'm reminded well I'll quote Nathaniel Branden to you or you know speaking of I on Iran but I think Nathaniel brand is right this is the guy who's the I mean the expert on self-esteem and just just if you know read his books fucking read them but he has one of the best quotes in history in my opinion and that is is that in order to think clearly we have to feel deeply that is hedonism you have to feel these things you don't bury them you don't shove them off for tomorrow ok you feel them and then you can think clearly because you're paying attention to what's going on for you and I know there's people who say well stoicism doesn't say various stoicism doesn't say go around walking around like mr. Spock or something yeah I get that but you create false paradigm so stoicism you really do and I have so much more I want to get into I'm going to try and wrap this up you create false paradigms like there's the idea of instant gratification that is that is such a false paradigm people do not I mean maybe there's some people that go after instant gratification but that term gets used way too much all right when people want something now it doesn't have to do the fact that they can't control their lust or they can't control their passion it's because they want a guarantee in a world where everything gets taken out from underneath them by thieves have you ever thought about it that way hmm it's not the yeah there's such a thing as instant gratification and been people not being able to delay gratification or something like this okay but it gets whoo it gets applied across the board and it's wrong to apply that way there's times where it needs to be applied but most of the ways that people think about it absolutely fucking not and so funny because like now the you know a lot of these people that are that are against sort of like some of the ideas that I've laid out with hedonism or hedonism in general that perhaps that you would read about and I know I haven't exactly described what it is but it's just so funny there's so many people that are against us or shit now they appeal to biology like they bring up a lot of this art type and and and arc you know this arc a selection theory and all this bullshit when it's like you know these same people will will tell you you know like they're part of say like the nofap movements right where you don't jerk off and all this stuff right and it's like well okay wait a second let's see violence biologically a person can come like a man a man can come a man can ejaculate every five minutes to an hour and they can ejaculate millions of billions sperm so biologically what are they designed to do well obviously they're designed to come a lot so what the fuck is this nonsense about you know not fapping woo woo anyway so hedonism for me let's boil now that I'm done railing I can see opposition I think I should reverse the order of how I'm talking about this but hedonism for me is just that is just what era step is talked about what I and ran talked about what a lot you know a lot of these different characters or philosophers people talked about that happiness is your number one goal now like sterner like Max Turner said is that your you know or even here I'll quote Robert Heinlein what is love love is your happiness completely intertwined with someone else's so and Turner was you know huge on feeling loved and that is that you know your happiness does not your acts all happiness your ethical hedonism does not fuck with someone else's pursuit of happiness is that the nap right something like that it's not exactly the nap but that's the thing you know do what or what it says that the Wiccans do what thou wilt you know just don't hurt anybody but hurt none right isn't that how they say it sure that's great that that's that's that's a perfect way to describe hedonism that's that certainly how you know how I chalk up hedonism of course what does hurt mean well that's another conversation okay but yeah I mean that that's it that that's that's really it and that seeking out these pleasures now how does that so I mean so that so there's hedonism for you is that see is that pleasure is the is the intrinsic good it is the ultimate good it is the ultimate goal in life is you know pleasure pleasure can take a lot of different forms pleasure could be a chocolate chip cookie pleasure could be a cum pleasure could be a threesome pleasure could be a scientific discovery pleasure could be a boat ride pleasure could be I mean obviously it could be all these different things right okay it's not just about living some kind of debauchery gluttonous life or whatever I don't have any problem with living that kind of life okay but it's not just that they're you know the finishing writing a book is a tremendous pleasure that's hedonism that's okay hedonism is telling you effectively that when Society says to you you know as a whole that just because society agrees upon something being a really like terrible or evil thing like like how anal sex used to be considered the unspeakable act hedonism says no it's not as long as there's consent actual consent you know and as long as you're rocking it because that would be part of the you know that would be part of the happiness right is you know intertwining it with someone else's experience okay rock n roll have a good time enjoy yourself call me in the morning if you want and so how does that how do I apply that in my own life I hope I kind of described it I mean I think the abstract definition that that wikipedia gave was actually fantastic you know how do I apply into my own life you know I don't listen to the societal mores you know and I and I listen to myself what do I want how would I want to be treated right you know kind of mean like the Platinum rule or the Golden Rule depending on which way you want to rock with it I look at that you know in there is when I'm in touch with my pleasure I can be more in touch with what I want out of life and how to respect other people because when I'm in touch with every aspect all of my passions all of my desires all of my discipline when I'm actually in touch with that when I'm feeling deeply so I can think clearly then I can better know how to respect other people as well so that's one of the ways that it gets applied it gets applied by you know I don't believe in other people would ruling over me because their pleasure isn't any greater than mine unless I choose it to be and I don't I mean now do I go around drinking do I go around you know doing all these other things no you know and and I don't mind that people do I don't care drink do drugs do all the drugs you want I don't give a shit okay you know but uh we're talking to Eton ISM go ahead I am NOT here to lay down social mores on you okay but I don't do any of that stuff now interestingly the reason I don't do that is because in my opinion just my opinion the individual hear me Bolden Stallion Brian sovereign they interfere with my ability to feel pleasure I mean in theirs you know I have science to kind of to back that up okay you know I've research that can that can back that up that you know whiskey-dick right you know you have stoner boner these are actual conditions that people get you know when they imbibe or ingest or you know smoke up whatever or even cigarettes themselves you know it can affect blood vessels and penis and all this and I don't want that because I've chosen what you know what work what am i one of my great vehicles of pleasure okay and I don't want to mess with it that's it but do you see how wanting how seeking pleasure actually created to some degree for lack of a better term a discipline and then I'm not going to do that stuff because I know what I want because I have felt deeply and I thought about it clearly because I felt it so that's how it applies hedonism says nothing in the abstract hedonism says really nothing about making sure you're going on to having a party it's just saying that if you want to you can as where other philosophies are saying that might not be a good idea based upon the philosophy telling you that hedonism you get the opportunity to tell yourself that you get the opportunity to explore yourself over that because you're not writing off your passions you see now I know I'm getting like all kind of hot bothered and heat it up and everything understand emailer I love your question I told you that like I just you know what what really comes up for me you know when I start talking about hedonism is the reasons that I you know that I cling so so much to it because so much a society tells you that so many your passions from the simplest passion of eating a chocolate chip or you know of eating a peanut butter whoopie pie you know to the larger passions of being in an orgy or something you know are wrong so it gets me heated up anyway I kind of hope that answered the question like I said this is something that I've wanted to do like it just a huge huge episode around going more into the history of it but I tried to be very brief and tried to describe a lot of this stuff for you and I and I hope it helps I hope it's what you're looking for yeah I just I apply it by you know by being able by accepting my passion and then being able to look at them you know instead of just writing them off because society tells me they're bad or because the country I happen to live in thinks that it's bad you know or something like this like like that that's how that's how hedonism can get applied um you know do I have you know say debauchery sexual adventures I certainly have but I don't treat you know but they're my experience in that I and I personally make sure because it's just as important to me having a good time that everybody else is having a good time when I'm rocking that shit to you see how logically hedonism plays in it's amazing do I want the future to be a better place in the world I live in now absolutely because that's the world I want to live in I want to live in a better world now I don't plan on dying of course either I think you know transhumanism is a thing not exactly the transhumanism that most people describe but regardless um you know I would do I do that simply out of not out of some like stoic desire to oh yes the world must be better when I leave it or I need to think about tomorrow it's not that it's just that that's what I want to live in so I'm trying to create it right now that is my debaucherous desires to have a peaceful planet Oh terrible you don't need to have this you know you don't need to feel a need or to have some kind of philosophy telling you you need to be worried about tomorrow to have a better tomorrow and that's that's that that's what you know that was one of the big polls to me for anarchism is that you know it was that great crucible of truth where you hammered everything out and you got rid of all the non-essentials and you've got you struck the root right strike the root and when he and what's left when you get to the root and what can grow from that root when you finally realize what it is that's exciting that's something but you got to get to that point you've got it and you have to you've got to have that basis you cannot just be constantly stepping back from say if you're a Republican or a Democrat or whatever and you're just constantly like a little bit okay you know I'm like this not now I'm like this eventually you got to get to the POTUS like okay look I think you know all of these different philosophies or ideologies or whatever they were you know there's there's something off about all of them and so I'm going to get to the root of this and then I'm going to go from there and that's what anarchism for me was all of it was all about you know that was I think in my opinion and I think there's actually a lot of evidence in what scant writings have survived because authoritarians burned it all okay what scant evidence survives us that hedonism in and of itself is anarchism they are one in the same and there's other people you can read I've mentioned his name a few times there's Michelle on Frei who does work on this there's there's a few others out there i as I tried to connect max Turner I think effectively you know this spouses hedonism so there you have it I'm going to leave it I'm just going to leave it at that and if people have more of particular questions or if you disagree with me please DISA go ahead disagree tell me your disagreement and I will discuss it all right especially if your assignment Lister look at away Jew okay you know just like this listener was asking you know tell me what you've invited Ruffo they're just asking the question I gotta heat up I wasn't heated up listener go ahead tell me instead of walking away you know and saying this guy's crazy why don't you try ever the conversation you just experienced sovereign tech go to sovereign tech comm that's sov ry and tech comm and connect with us there find links from today's show and catch our podcast feed sovereign techies copy Hart copying art is an act of love and love is not subject to long so please share the show however you like welcome to be evolution

  1. I've always been a libertarian socialist, and while there's some things i disagree with Stirner on, i feel that there's a wealth of things to take away from his philosophy. Marx, Stirner, and Kropotkin all have some great ideas, and while they'd likely kick each other's asses if you put them all in one room, elements of each of their philosophies i think could come together to form a beautiful synthesis.

    It's a shame that Marx is so demonized, Kropotkin's only famous in anarchist circles, and Stirner is so obscure. The bread book, the ego book, and to a lesser extent the commie manifesto, (das capital is better, but who the fuck's gonna read all of that?) all need to be read by everyone at least once.

    But, with all due respect, fuck Ayn Rand xD

  2. Claims that other people don't understand Stirner, and then he claims a spook is anything unreal or not scientific. Hey buddy science is a spook.

  3. "libertarian" goes beyond American notions of capitalist Libertarians, the phrase goes back to some socialist newspaper.

  4. I have nothing against egoism, but I do think that some people can straw man you about rights being a spook. Like the way you worded that "The right to bear arms? What is that? That doesn't exist." I mean you can apply that argument on the right to own guns, but what about the right to abortion, or the right to autonomy just in general, like, the right to even breath? I would say that all of authority is the true illusion. The only reason why rights are prevalent is because we live under authority, which is the real reason why rights are an illusion. I think it's better to not lose sight of that simple fact, or else it would seem as though a well known anarchistic philosophy can easily flip on top of itself into a more pro hierarchy philosophy, which wouldn't make sense.

  5. Some guy just goes around using whatever he sees without respect for others and their property doesn't deserve protection. He cna be booted off without moral implication because SURPRISE he doesn't seem to care about property rights.

  6. The original libertarians were anarcho communists, they HATED most property “rights.” Right wing libertarianism is a farce and those who engage with it are just boot licking slaves. Hail saint Max.

  7. I consider myself a voluntaryist because that's sort of the best label for me. Really I'm idealistic and want communists, mutualist, capitalists, etc to get along. I did consider myself an ancap before I realized I hated other ancaps. I need to read into egoism and more individualist anarchism, only AnIndiv I've read is Lysander Spooner.

  8. 'Muh Cognitive Dissonance: the hour and 20 minute video' is a much better title. You literally claim you have to ask people to define hedonism, and then define pleasure as anything I want. Hurting others is a spook if it doesn't perceptively affect you at that moment. And you end up making yourself sound like a next level fedora atheist faggot.

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