Socialism vs Capitalism | Full Debate | Yaron Brooks, Leo Panitch, Kemi Badenoch

is it a mistake to imagine that equality can be engineered by socialist planning should we be skeptical of those wrapped in fine ideals or is there a form of socialism that can deliver on the dream that's sort of going to be discussing today so here on the panel we have Leo panitch who is emeritus professor of political science at York University in Toronto on my left here I have Yaron Brook who is chairman of the iron Rand Institute and on my far left literally anyways cami who is a Conservative MP for Safran Walden so Leo over to you thanks Mary Anne in one of Barbara Kingsolver remarkable novels a woman asks her lover did you ever dream you could fly and he replies not when I was sorting pecans all day and she presses on and says but really did you ever fly in your dreams and he answers only when I was close to flying in real life your dreams which you hope for and all that is not separate from your life it grows right out of it Terry Eagleton the great British philosopher who wrote in a volume I added on necessary and unnecessary utopians back in 2000 that the only authentic image of the future is the failure of the present in its inability to redeem glimpses of our potential afforded by our own experience and if you'll allow me finally and I think this comes straight out of the previous two quotations Marx once said socialism is not a state of affairs to which reality will have to adjust itself but a real movement which abolish –is the present state of things so just to make it clear where I'm coming from socialism is not a model it's not an economic model it's not an abstract utopia it's not Thomas Moore it's not even the much greater Robert Owen socialism is always the warm element in human life which is aiming to unleash human democratic sympathetic reciprocity in our lives it is certainly not as is most commonly and mistakenly claimed state versus market I'll stop there that's interesting okay Yaron so the first thing to comes to mind when when I saw the title socialist dreams is nightmares socialist nightmares because that's the only thing humanity has experienced when it is adopted socialist dreams its experienced a nightmare but it's not just that socialism has failed everywhere that it is being tried from the gulags to the timão to Venezuela right now to the kibbutz in Israel but that ideologically as an ideal I think socialism an inherently corrupt ideal it is based on an inherently corrupt moral philosophy and therefore has to fail because it is antagonistic to human nature and it's agonistic to proper a proper respect for ethics socialism is based on the philosophical notion not that we should be nice to one another not a reciprocal with the prosody which is the hallmark of capitalism Rissa prosody but of the idea that the individual should be sacrificed to the group and you can fill in the you can fill in what the group constitutes you can fill in you know if it's the polity Rhian or if it's some other form of group but it's the idea that the individual at the end of the day does not matter though what matters is some kind of social utility some kind of well-being some kind of mystical form platonic form of the good that is not actually attainable for any individual but somehow we have as a group and to me any time you want to sacrifice an individual you want to literally do human sacrifice which is what socialism has always done it's that is evil that is the essence of what evil means so I oppose socialism not only because it obviously has been a dramatic and and overwhelming failure in practice but because it has failed because is so compatible with human morality with the strive towards individual virtue and with the focus that we have had in the West since the Enlightenment on individual flourishing individual freedom individual liberty which i think is what the west and now beautifully globally is the essence of a civilized civilization the idea of the sanctity the sanctity of the individual and placing an individual first as the end thank you thank you Kenny thank you Mary Ann um I think there's something in that yarn that I can agree with because I'm someone who does believe in individual liberty and personal freedom that's that's what my philosophy is about and I don't think that it is compatible with socialism but I'm coming at it from me from a different angle because I've actually been through it where I lived we had socialism they didn't call it socialism I grew up in Nigeria and this I think is one of the greatest tricks you know with apologies to Chris Macquarie who wrote the usual suspects that the greatest trick that socialism ever achieved was making people think that it hadn't been tried properly yet and that's why we keep having the the conversation about it even though we have seen time and time again what the results what the results are we've seen in fact two countries split themselves into by their I mean Germany and Korea where they tried the two different models and the model that always that the socialist model always ended up with people trying to get out and getting shots for doing so literally wanting to escape it and I think that that is what you will always have with socialism but the question which we were given was can it ever worked and actually it was very very controversial I do think in a very very limited set of circumstances which I'll elaborate on later you can have it but I don't think that you will like what it is that you what it is that you see and I think that the the tragedy of some of the discussions were having now is that there's a new generation that's never really experienced it certainly in this country or in the US and be they have an idealistic sort of utopian view of what it could be if only people just got it right which is where my own personal experience comes from and I think in particular people say that Nigeria wasn't socialist that what the problem with it was was corruption one of the greatest tragedies of African when African countries got their independence was that it was in the 60s when socialism and that you know philosophy was in its heyday and almost universally every African country chose a socialist model whether it was Julius and Yuri in Tanzania whether it was primary in promoting Nigeria you know goner even in Nigeria in in Senegal everywhere it was the ideal that they looked for and it caused so many problems where if you look in Asia with other countries that didn't necessarily go down that path and what happens when and I know Leo says it isn't about state versus markets I'd be quite interested to hear more about that because that's not the socialism which we were taught in schools and that's in the textbooks but that when you do have the government being the owner of every single thing and being in charge of everything it does foster it does foster corruption it gives them an unlimited power which is so dangerous and it crushes the individual okay so what we're going to discuss to start with is whether we can achieve equality through some form of centralized planning which is generally what socialism is about and I my worry is that you have almost defined socialism out of existence in in in in in in your pitch at the beginning by saying it's not about Marxism it's not about state versus market it's purely a question of affinity but I mean we all feel affinity with each other we can all be socialist but we we need to talk about socialism in action socialism in public policy socialism far government's and so if you've defined that out of existence how can we even talk about it why hardly define Marx out of existence and it was Marx who said that socialism's about as John did John Stuart Mill the full realization of individual capacity and the notion that Marx or any socialist believes that the existing state the pre capitalist state or the existing state and the capitalist society is the institutional structures through which people would be able to realize their democratic collective potentials is absurd no one would claim this indeed in not only the Marxist tradition but in the Social Democratic one in the liberal one for that matter the state is seen as an imposition on society not as an expression of it so let's then go back to this question of central planning central planning was introduced in capitalist societies during World War one it was the mobilization of all resources by the state in order to prosecute the war these were capitalist states although pre-capitalist ruling classes landed classes were still powerful within them and in my view that was an element in what produced the war although obviously a capitalist competition for colonies not least in Africa which most of which were secured and turned basically into capitalist societies as colonies and remained as such in Nigeria after independence and shale-oil indicates that's where central planning was introduced it is true that Lenin looked with admiration on the German post office but he did not look with admiration on German central planning with its direction of labour its conscription of trade unions and labor etc if you want to understand how that evolved in the Soviet Union it was not something that was a model that they imposed you have to understand it in the context of the civil war the invasion of the Soviet Union by the forces that were victorious in world war one and it was a unfortunate response to that civil war and I think as Isaac deutscher pointed out the great historian of Stalin the journalist for the economist here in Britain what happened during the course of the war was that the anarcho-syndicalist turned out more popular than the Bolsheviks when you had competing parties but digit parties were done away with because it was never thought by socialists that once workers had been won to socialism they might no longer support it and they responded disastrously disastrously by closing off freedom of expression competing parties etc were criticized immediately for this most famously by Rosa Luxemburg why this is why she's a hero of the Democratic Socialist Left not only do you not have Liberty when you don't have competing parties freedom Association what especially matters in a socialist society is workers develop ordinary people developing the capacities to govern and you can't do that where you have bureaucracy closing that off so yes the crack existed in Soviet socialism it was resolved by 1924 you're quoting from Leonard Cohen he's thinking of this there is a crack in everything let's ring the bells that still can ring but he thinks and I think there was also a crack in social democracy let me just finish with this would Eagleton says it is the failure of the president in terms of in terms of redeeming our possibilities this is what redeems the socialist vision and the attempt by us socialists as democratic socialists to find a way for that not to happen and it is as opposed to what we just heard the appalling failure the appalling failure of neoliberal global capitalism to realize most people's potential as we see in the way the gloss is off of it everywhere the tragedy of course is that the failure of Soviet socialism much more importantly the way in which social democracy the Third Way Blair ISM all the European Social Democratic parties embrace neoliberal globalization leaves them now bereft in terms of speaking to their own constituency okay okay I'm gonna cut you short there but I want to ask so we've had now 101 years since socialism was first introduced in government well if you count for 1917 onwards in what country in which country in that century has there been successful democratic socialism with as you say freedom we're not talking about its betrayed all over the world so whereas it worked it isn't a model that's been imposed it's an outgrowth of particular societies in particular times in conflict internally and in conflict externally you say that's to say socialism in Cuba didn't work did capitalism in Cuba work socialism in Cuba didn't come out of a model it came out of the failure of capitalism in Cuba and what happened to socialism Cuba cannot be understood from beyond the fact that it sits on the periphery of the greatest empire in world history right did socialism in Mozambique work no but one has to understand that obviously in terms of the conditions of Mozambique if social resources its place in the world you fighting point um I've been going through a hundred capitalist societies which we could say fail fail in Aaron's terms in terms of Liberty let's look at the number capitalist dictatorships in history indeed my fear today with Trump with the xenophobia that people are being appealed to is that just as it was said in the 1930s he who speaks of fascism without speaking of capitalism should remain silent I fear today that he who speaks of capitalism without speaking of fascism should remain silent it may be we will turn to socialism because the alternative in the name of individual freedom is to treat everyone else as an asset so you're basically saying it's the least worst ok how can we know it's not necessarily it's what we can do to realize our potential once we free ourselves of being treated as assets yes people with property but where is it actually worked in a democratic way with freedom I'd like to come back on a couple of things that that Leo has said there is there's a general conflation between capitalism and free markets they are not the same thing one of them is a method of ownership the other one is a method of exchange you can have free markets without having the capitalism if you want and for example if you look at the John Lewis Partnership for instance Waitrose that's not a capitalist model all the employees have a share in the business and they will have a share of the profits the coop down the road is another example there are loads of different types of models that you can have while still having a free market system so the issue around capitalism it yeah what Lehrer I think is calling capitalism is what I would call corporatism where it's about corporations rather than for me capitalism is the small business you having a bakery being able to buy and sell your own goods that's capitalism too so when you talk about for instance shell operating in Nigeria it's something I know I lived there when all of this was happening when Ken Sarah was killed shell was basically an extension of the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation they work together the people have to do with what was girls room the price of oil was set by the government which is here price controls it's it's as a tenant its socialism that you have to fix you know it's about price fixing price controls to make sure that people doing overcharge and all that happened was that the oil price globally went up and the Nigerian government took money from poor people and subsidized the price of oil which was mainly used by the wealthy because they're the ones who had the cars they're the ones who had generators and so on it always has these sort of perverse incentives where there will still be a top-class of people whether you have capitalism or not he brings the socialism in and still there's a ruling class as we stall with Stalin Lenin a ruling class that still manages to be above everyone else so I'm very suspect I'm very suspicious of it I'm also very interested in Leo's definition of socialism which seems to be able to morph and move it's very ethereal and here we can't really grasp it it's something it's more of an emotion rather than rather than a definition which then gives it it gives it that out that it can never ever be it can never ever be tried because anyone who tries it gets it wrong whether they call it if they don't call it socialism as we had in Africa then it hasn't really been tried or as we had with National Socialism in Germany the Nazi Party had it in the name and people said well that's not that's not socialism either yet we see the same results over and over individuals being squashed and crushed and the idea is more important than the people and that's why that's why I will never that's why I will never subscribe to it and when you talk about you know you said the appalling failure of neoliberalism to realize individual potential where else in the world is individual potential realized more so than in the West to the point where millions of people from all over the world are desperately trying to come here because this is where they feel that their ambitions and their individual potential can be most fulfilled and that is what they say when they get off the boat when they get off the plane it's sad the way we talk about integration as just you know the as people just coming for economic benefits it's not just that this is not a dormitory where people come to work and make money there's a lot more about what we have to offer and it is about that individual liberty and personal freedom people do not rush to socialist States any state that has done it there's no one beating their doors down to go and live in Cuba or Venezuela or North Korea or any of those places and for me look at the evidence look at the evidence that that's that I think that's all you need to do to know that this is something that can't work but Yaron surely and there doesn't seem to be any place in your ideology for fairness and between people because not everybody is born with the same intelligence or the same attributes with the same abilities and you know the great thing about socialism surely is that at least they can get a decent education they can get decent healthcare they can lead a reasonable life whatever disadvantages they're born with well if you go to some public schools particularly in the in the poorest parts of England and the poorest parts of the United States I don't think you would call the education the kids get their decent well actually in some of the poorest parts of London you get some of the best schools places like granted I may be I should argue about London but but certainly in the United States that's not that's not the case public education good schools a massive failure yeah charter schools have improved things but charter schools is exactly what the socialist inclination would argue against that's not free publicly provided yes and I think we could improve dramatically over that as well when we don't make them free don't make them publicly provided but let me but I have to comment on this on this neoliberalism failure not the time in neoliberal is because I think they're way too moderate but I mean to look around the world today and see darkness is to have shades to be waving shades I travel all over the world I've spoken in 60 different countries when I go around the world when I go to Eastern Europe or I go to Asia or I go to China or you go to Vietnam or you go to any of these countries what you're seeing is that the creation of markets the ability to have free markets even in limited circumstances brings out human potential people are so hungry to be free as individuals so hungry to be left alone from the state dictating every single aspect of their lives and as a consequence a billion people over a billion people have come out of extreme poverty over the last thirty years and you can ignore that you could pretend it didn't happen but globalization has brought more wealth to the world has helped poverty the poor more than any other theoretical abstract system in human history over a billion people over the last 30 years have come out of extreme poverty the middle there's a middle class today in India and in in in China that did not exist 30 years ago 30 years ago 30 percent of the planet lived on under $2 a day today the number is under 9 percent now that should be something we should be celebrating and asking the question how did this happen this is indeed a beautiful thing none of it happened because of foreign aid none of it happened because of the exploitation of Marxist ideology they already had that it's indeed the rejection of that Marxist ideology it's the rejection of central planning it's the rejection of the idea of the proletarian that is brought this around it's it's the fact that dunks are paying in China as evil Anna bastard that he was was willing to say look it worked in Hong Kong maybe we should try this in the area around Hong Kong and see what happens we'll just leave them alone and when you leave people along when you leave people free then they create things that exceed our imagination because you are liberating the human potential and that is true if you if you go back to hundred fifty years ago 95 percent of humanity lived in $2 a day or less imagine your own lives on $2 a day or less we want we people people tell me you know we have a lot of anxiety in life today think about living where you're growing your own food and half your children are dying before age 10 that is the world before capitalism before free market capitalism is the greatest liberate and human history of the poor of ever the ninety five percent who used to be in a junk poverty it is the greatest it is the greatest system we have ever come across and the antagonism towards it I find mystifying because again human life is ever ever ever being better than it is right now and it's it could be a lot better that we'll agree on because I don't think what capitalists enough we don't take our capitalism seriously enough and there's a trick in your question right because you have equated fairness with equality but fairness never used to mean equality fairness means getting what you deserve and I would argue that equality is not what you deserve some people deserve more and some people deserve less based on the value they create how do you define deserve imma suppose you're born with special educational needs and it's very difficult for you to hold down a normal job do you just deserve to be poor because you know something was a little bit wrong with your brain when you were born in a sense so let's flip there on what makes it because you were born that way what gives you a claim against what I could use what gives you a claim about my effort and my values that is I might help you because I care for you and I care about human beings but what gives you a claim against me and in the end the right to use violence against me in order to find it I never suggested violent taxis what is redistribution of wealth is not taxed as violence against some for I not paying your taxes the peroration to capitals you just heard you can read in the whole first half of Communists the Communist Manifesto by carnal trace it is absolutely true and that's why we're talking about not a model but historical conflict and Direction movement of course capitalism has been the most dynamic the most productive the most competitive the most successful economic system in human history the bourgeoisie has been the most revolutionary class in human history much more than the proletariat absolutely and if Marx was wrong he was wrong in thinking that at a very young age it didn't have very long to live the book I've written the making global capitalism is about how remarkable it is that a hundred and fifty years after the Communist Manifesto which so brilliantly predicts what we came to call globalization in the 1990s was realized 150 years later exactly in the terms we just heard where every social relationship on the face of the earth is commodified where every social relationship on the face of the earth is treated as a derivative asset that's the world we're in and it is dynamic very true right and it does produce enormous wealth it also of course produces enormous inequality even when it increases the standard of living of those at the bottom that's very true so all of these societies that have become capitalists in this period above all Nigeria the notion that Nigeria never claimed to be socialist the notion that the first thing the National Socialism did was to imprison the trade unionist the social democrats let alone the communists the only reason they took their word socialism was because of the appeal it had to a very strong German working class the whole emphasis of fascism was anti-socialist and it's obvious from who didn't go to jail and who did who didn't go to jail were the capitalists that's know that's not who by look I think I think that's that's a very heavy history to with the failure of neoliberal globalization was not what you're described as its capitalist successes the failures are the D legitimation that has come after 2007 but up to today the largest number of strikes in the world are in China by far 200,000 a year right by people whose standards of living have gone up who support their extended families in the in the villages right that's the largest number strikes the largest number of suicides the largest number of occupational deaths in the world right the same is true of India where there is a massive middle class absolutely true but the massive increase in impoverishment in alienation and destitution is enormous especially in the massive cities which you're connected with when you connect with someone in Chennai and you know you think you're calling up BT and it's actually some educated Indian on the line who is giving you advice about what to do to get your phone fixed in that very city which I'd been where 200,000 women have recently organized against Nokia by the National Indian trade union federation the impoverishment is stunning it looks like Manchester the point is Japan Chester in 1980 I totally agree that is not to say therefore that capitalism is over what it is to say is that the conflict that capitalism has always produced the aspirations it's always produced are not going to go away that 21st century will be a century again of socialist movement and aspiration whether we will get it right will partly have to do with the degree of dogmatism on the right with regard to giving space to do it like because they have the military they have the City of London and if there is not space given to a Democratic Socialist government to try to turn finance into a public utility to try to extend the co-ops you were speaking of to use a National Investment Bank in regional investment banks to provide an infrastructure for those co-ops then we could indeed face a dictatorial capitalism or if Jeremy Corbyn totally transforms himself as a human being which I don't think he would yes we could face an authoritarian socialism the future moment hang on a moment because what I really wanted to discuss here is which system goes best or against the grain of human nature because you're saying that capitalism makes us feel alienated and dispirited and suicidal well I know it's not one thing but equally when socialism has been trying to practice that also seems to go against the grain of human nature because people seem to want to have an incentive to work and therefore and in collectivise farms and that sort of thing hardly any food got grown when they got in in Cuba when people were allowed to grow their own food and farms suddenly production went up so I'm just wondering whether there's something about human nature that perhaps doesn't work with a with it with a collector you have unleashed as many dimensions of human nature the care that a mother shows for her child the sensitivity we feel to a human being and suffering is part of our human nature the competitiveness that he thinks is the goal of all human life but the the the the protection of his property is also human nature what we need to do is try to develop those aspects of human nature that realize individuality in a social way not in a selfish greedy let me get engage in a tax haven way and to hell with the rich this is a caricature it's a complete and utter caricature the idea that all human relationship read commoditize my relation with my wife and my children is not being commoditized my relation what my friends has now become audit eyes my relationship with my social circle and maybe for some of you your religion has not be commoditized the idea that these relationships have been commoditized is just propaganda to make capitalism be what it is not all capitalism is and we're gonna disagree a little bit about capitalism and we're certainly gonna disagree about what capitalism is capitalism is freedom capitalism is the freedom of the individual to live his life as he sees fit free of coercion fear of coercion of the state and free of coercion from his neighbor as a mother in a well free mind and free of coercion from the coop it's not what we have today we don't have capitalism today we have elements of capitalism but the reason if so many strikes in China today is because China is not capitalist but elements they are elements of capitalism in China just like their elements of socialism in China but what makes China rich what allows the individuals in China to achieve the human potential and to live up to the human nature is the capitalist element it is the socialist element that is actually suppressing them and causing them to strike it is in a state-run enterprises where you're seeing the strikes it is not in the private sector that you're seeing the strikes so it's it's a perversion to describe capitalism as fascist yes the capitalist so-called capitalists the people with money and not everybody with money as a capitalist the people with money who wanted to cooperate with the Nazis didn't go to jail the people with money who didn't want to cooperate with the Nazis did go to jail to make this about class warfare fascism but particularly Nazis is a complete and utter distortion of history it certainly there were rich families in Germany who put who cooperated with the Nazis and they should go to hell for that but it is not true that every single person with money was a Nazi and that money defined their cooperation many of them refused and many of them went to the concentration camps suddenly if they were Jewish but even if they were not fascism is the antithesis of capitalism fascism is far more similar to socialism then it is to capitalism a tea that they edge a socialist socialism communism and fascism are brothers yes the Nazis got rid of their political enemies but they imposed the same kind of central planning as the Socialists did in Soviet Union it just had a slightly different form both the anti-democratic both the anti freedom and both want to sacrifice the individual to some grand view of humanity whether it's for the sake of the politician the working classes or for the sake of the of the race but let me make one other point about spiritual values or whatever I mean when I look at the 19th century when I look at somebody like Beethoven who was born if you will under a feudal system and they grew up into a more capitalist system I see an artist going from a position where he was completely a hundred percent dependent on aristocrats for being able to create his music and put on performances by the end of his career he's doing live events public events where the new bourgeoisie are paying to come and see him perform and what you see throughout Europe is a flourishing of self-expression a flourishing of the Arts a flourishing of diverse a massive diversity artistic spiritual ideological wonderful debates and discussions and salons and and and the arts just explode Jewish people and they're being democratized in a sense that they are now accessible to the masses hardly Kenny in the 19th century for me a really poignant moment in this discussion has been just touched on but Leo saying that the capitalists cooperated with Nazis and then completely forgetting what happened to the Jews whose property was confiscated and and and what happened to them and it resonates for me now because when we talk about a rise in anti-semitism that we see I think it is actually linked to link it's linking capitalism and and and being Jewish there's something about that link that's coming up and then the anti-semitism in its own way is an express an anti-capitalist expression that's come out in a in a particularly of form like that marelit jeremy corbyn approved of well do you know I'm not even sure if he really understands exactly exactly what is going on but I don't think it's a coincidence that didn't refer no no I think that I think that leaves me no no no Leo listen to what I'm saying let me figure you had your chance there there are blank spots which people tend to have when they're talking about socialism in capitalism they see the very best in their own motivations and opinions and the very worst in their opponents and then they forget things which the bad things which have happened by by people on their own side and it's interesting you know you talking to me about my during capitalism it's myth of Nigerian capitalism it really saddens me because I lived it I grew up in it I went to a school for example where we had to take exams and depending on what you scored your entire life was decided these are the subjects you're going to study you possibly known as the eleven plus here in ribbon no no no nothing like that at all this is it's not the eleven plus this is about if you score above a certain amount you've got to do sciences and it's why for instance you find more African and Asian women in engineering courses I studied engineering because it's all state if State designed we I had an exam which was similar to the eleven plus and what they did was they took all the scores of everyone who was there and they took the exam and they sprinkled us around the country because they wanted us to be equal they didn't want us to go to the school that was nearest nearest home they wanted everybody to understand what it was like in a different part of the country so can you imagine taking an exam and then being told that the state is going to send you to a school 500 miles from home state boarding school it had to be we had to do manual labor so that we could learn but these values and social values learn about the land and and and and that and that is the challenge because people go there and they see markets and people buying and selling and they call it capitalism the state defines how much the currency is worth so you can't buy for in exchange for instance so a black market is created where the real value of the money exists and if someone like my mother or father wants to come to this country she buys if she wants you if she wants it quickly she buys it off the black market if she wants it at the official rate she goes through a bank and she writes for permission to change her own money her own money at a rate that is that is viable that is what the wealthy people do it always Foster's it always fosters corruption but people don't understand this thing they confused the ability of someone to be able to sell trinkets and maybe set up a business as as capitalism went the entire structure when the entire structure is is is actually about state control is about state intervention and telling people what they should do and how they live their lives you can't do anything on your own I think that being my point the capitalism as a real historical system has existed far more with dictatorial governments then it has with with what we call democratic ones by definition a tutorial country I think what actually what is that dictatorship are so common that you will find capitalism in dictatorships you'll find social in socialism in dictatorships but when you look at the impact on other people's lives when you look at the bare facts of do people want to live in these socialist states no they don't I think it I think it is just an objective fact and I'm not taking sides here that there are more democracies that are capitalist than democracies that are socialist but Leo because you're the only socialist on the platform I'm going to give you five minutes now to tell us how you finish I [Laughter] give you four minutes to explain exactly how you put socialism in action retaining Democrats all the Democratic freedom of expression that sort of thing in a way that would work in a country like the UK the democracy that we enjoy the very limited democracy that we enjoy in the advanced capitalist societies and political scientists of every ideological strike agree with this cannot be understood apart from the formation of organizations of the un– propertied who demanded that they be included in the state despite being unprofor m– of represent elected representation we had before jacksonian democracy in the united states first of all a night not sure any go stream if you wish it was this job GT was related to it it was the development of labor movements and the development of feminist movements after that supportive usually by these labor movements arguing that the unprompted human beings were considered the properties of the men and their family should be able to be members of the state and the democracy we have which is a real valued and important thing was won by those struggles it didn't come out of an abstract model it didn't come out of the beneficence of the old state ruling class it was one everywhere and this is entirely agreed in political science there was a great deal of socialist yearning often associated this with this but not for the most part that socialist yearning that yearning for collective protection collective expression an attempt to democratize our society to democratize the enterprise to allow what happens on the hospital ward to be a matter of discourse and discussion of a democratic kind to allow what happens in the mine to be that was what we were looking for that has not been achieved that has not been achieved well we have a three National Health Service here which is free but what I was speaking of the Democratic aspiration what we have is a society in which the decisions about what is to be produced where it's to be produced what's to be invested how it's to be invested is not determined by States it is determined by the massive corporations that control the economies they do so of course in close conjunction with the states that protect their property that codify the rules of exchange around the world say you go we have it is important democracy but we have a yearning which korban expresses for a much broader a much deeper democratic economy democratic society what do you do well if you read the labor manifesto it begins with developing the coop system providing an infrastructure through it for it through regional investment banks in my view eventually although this would meet enormous opposition not only from the City of London but I fear from parts of the British state which are the repressive apparatus of the state to turn what we all need so badly and are now so stuck into to turn the city of London into a public utility this is what all of our resources pass through right and without access to that we can't democratically decide what should be produced how it should be produced whether the NHS should be marketized which is what's happened to it okay right good so I'd like to thank our panelists very much and you as well for coming

  1. Unfortunately, this was a waste of time. Leo Panitch merely presented a word salad where he just made up his own, generally vague, definitions. There wasn't even an attempt to present a coherent position or argument.

  2. Socialism has failed everywhere ? Amazing claim. Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark are a slap in the face to Yaron Brook. China lifted 850 Million people out of abject poverty in 40 years, a feat never before seen in history. That's not failure.

  3. I do not think the panel is balanced at all. It seems like it pitches three anti-socialists versus one democratic socialist. It marginalizes the Socialist position from the very beginning on.

  4. It’s not socialism versus capitalism, it is humanity vs capitalism ……..capitalism is destroying the world

  5. There ahould be more regulation on capatalism like there used to be .Capatslism has an incentive which other economic systems lack .Capatalism has to exist to some extent .otherwise it would be a tyranny.

  6. Georgism is the perfect middle ground between capitalism and socialism. Georgism has the benefits of free markets, without the monopolization of land. Land monopoly is the most economically destructive aspect of capitalism. Those who own the land make the rules … that can never work.

  7. Why talk about conditions and neveral the absolite totalitarian model.

    All those states were capitalists.

  8. it was a model they imposed. it was directly caused by the nature of their monolithical top-down spirit.

  9. "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." -Winston Churchill

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