Rand Paul Makes the Case Against Socialism | Guest: Sen. Rand Paul | Ep 35

– Welcome to Kibbe on Liberty. A very special guest this week, Senator Rand Paul. We’re gonna talk about the new book that he’s written with his wife Kelley, The Case Against Socialism. We’re also going to drink
some fine Kentucky bourbon and we’re gonna take down this
evil philosophy step by step. Check it out. (rock music) – Senator, thanks for joining me. – Absolutely. – We have a lot to plow through. I understand that Mitch McConnell is holding the Sword of
Damocles over us with his gavel. So we’re gonna sort of power through the entire critic of socialism
in just a couple of minutes but if I can, let me ask
you, how’s your health? I think everybody knows about the attack but they’re wondering how you’re doing. – You know, I’m getting better. I thought I was completely better and then I had a setback this summer and had to have part of my lung removed and then got really, really sick and I had to go back in the hospital but it’ll take more than
that to keep me down. You know Matt, I’m a fighter so I’ll be back and I’m
getting more strength each day. – Well, we want you to be
in the fight specifically about the book and the reason
that you and your wife Kelley wrote the book, The Case Against Socialism and I have a super cool hard to find pre, this may be illegal in multiple
states even to have one. – Only if you show it to someone. – Yeah, only if you show it.
– Or if you try to resell it. – Yeah.
– You know, so. – Well, I assume I’m
gonna to put this on eBay as soon as I can but, The
Case Against Socialism and I have to say, I
was saying this before this is kind of one stop shopping if you want to understand
the economics and the history and the grisly violence and the body count and even taking a look at why young people are sort of romanced by this thing. This is the one place
where people can get that. It’s an impressive feat that
you guys have accomplished. – Yeah, and one of the funny responses that people come up to me and they say, “Well, gosh it shouldn’t
really be necessary.” You know, they’re like, and I kind of think that too. You know, we’ve all read
like Mises’s Socialism and all these critics of
socialism and yet it’s like unfortunately, it is necessary. The new generation didn’t read that, didn’t pay attention to history. Might have something to do
with the government schools that taught this generation,
but I’m very worried. When you see polling that
says over half of young people think socialism will be a good
idea and it’s like, really? They haven’t heard about what
socialism did last century? – Yeah, but I think they
probably haven’t heard, right? They didn’t get it in school. – They have no idea. They have no idea. And in fact, I think if you ask people, was Hitler a socialist? They’ll probably say “Oh
no, he was a capitalist. “That was capitalism run amok.” And we talk a little
about that in the book because even the political spectrum, you would say well, the
political spectrum is benign, that’s just objective teaching of history. Well, not exactly because
whoever devised the spectrum once upon a time decided
to put Hitler over here and Stalin over here. Instead, they’re really the
two forms of the same thing. Both socialists. One is national socialism and racism and you know the racial
violence of Hitler, and the other one is a
different type of socialism but it nevertheless equally as violent. – Yeah, that chapter, and I know we’re all arguing about this now and the Left loves to
compare everybody to Hitler but you prove fairly conclusively,
you document the fact that Hitler, before there
was something called fascism. Same with Mussolini as
well, they were socialists and they were really fighting about power as opposed to ideology. – Well even Hitler was very, he was very proud that his was
a unique form of socialism. It wasn’t that it wasn’t socialism. It wasn’t Bolshevik socialism
and he hated the Bolsheviks, but his was unique. He tied nationalism to socialism. – Yeah. – And he wanted to skip
over the class struggle and all the malaise that happened and all the stuff that happened, and when the Bolsheviks
took over from the czars, he wanted to skip that and
just take the unification of all of Germany, sort
of greater Germany, greater Ubermensch, the
super men, et cetera. He wanted to skip over the bad part and just have national socialism but in the end, both Stalin
socialism and Hitler socialism end up having, for some
reason, some commonality, millions of people had to die. – Yeah, yeah so Mises in and I think it was in the book Liberalism, he talks about that the
flavor is different, right. So Marxism socialism tries to divide people
by class horizontally and then fascism tries
to divide people by race or religion or ethnicity. – I think you’re exactly right but I think it’s also there
was a purposeful intent by historians and political scientists to make sure that Hitler
wasn’t a socialist. I mean, it was a concerted effort because they saw what Hitler did and people began to
know about the Holocaust before they knew about
what Stalin was doing but they wanted to make
sure socialism is good, Hitler is bad. We’re not associated with it. If he was a socialist also then they have some explaining to do. We don’t really hear fully
about Stalin’s programs and the millions, well
we were hearing about it but until Khrushchev
finally admits in the ’60s how bad it was and we
still continued to learn for another decade how
many millions of people were killed under Stalin. – Yeah, I mean, one good, one of the good news today
if you want to call it that is that those, the way
that Mao’s body count and Stalin’s body count were just erased from
history until recently. That’s harder for someone like
Nicolás Maduro to pull off because we see the video. – Right. One of the quotes that I
think we have in the book but I came across was that somebody said one of the greatest sort of
advancements towards poverty in the world that Mao was part of. One of the most fantastic things he did that alleviated poverty was dying. You know, because he was one
of the greatest purveyors of famine and poverty. And another statistic I read recently was like a hundred million
people died from famine in the 20th century and like 80% of them were from collectivization, socialism, you know, taking the farms. – Yeah. So let’s take a second break here and get some bourbon because you are the Senator from Kentucky. – Well, of course,
– And you’re, – It wouldn’t really be a bourbon sipping if you weren’t talking
about how bad socialism was and how good bourbon is, right? – And I just want to point to everybody that watches Kibbe on Liberty. I’m drinking bourbon with Rand Paul talking Austrian economics and socialism. This is kinda cool for me. – Well, and if later on
Matt is slurring his words, he hasn’t iced his down at all. See, I’ve diluted mine just a little bit so I don’t slur my words
later in the interview. – Yeah, I mean ice is acceptable but just barely. – That’s true. The purists say no ice and you shouldn’t
pollute your good bourbon and apparently this is good
bourbon that we got today. So, yeah.
– This is good bourbon. But of course, all Kentucky
bourbon is good bourbon. I want to take a step back because all of my favorite
economists are mentioned and documented in the
intellectual and historical case against socialism in your book. Where did you… you talk about Mises
and Hayek and Rothbard and all of these guys that very much influenced
my intellectual background. What’s your framework? I have a theory as to where
you got these these ideas from. – Well, some of it might
have to do with my father. I grew up with a library full of Mises and Hayek and Rothbard. I actually only got to meet one of them. I met Murray Rothbard
on several occasions. My dad used to have an intern program where he would invite all
interns on the Hill to speakers and one of his speakers one
year was Murray Rothbard. I’m still doing the same thing. We don’t have Murray Rothbard anymore but we’ve had Matt Kibbe
come and talk to our interns and it’s exciting. – They were doing the wave. – Yeah, they were doing the wave but I think you were the first one to do the bodysurf thing, you know. – Yeah. – But no, I think that, and it’s one of the things that
I’m the first one to admit. I don’t think I’ve discovered
any new economic theory with this but I think
I’ve made it readable but I’ve tried to bring in
some of the great insights of both Hayek and Mises and Rothbard and they really had a lot to say even about issues that
really weren’t as big then that are bigger now,
like income inequality. We have a couple of chapters on that but Mises had stuff to say
about income inequality. Hayek had it. One of the things that Hayek said and it’s a little bit hard
to get this out to people but it’s, I think, an incredible point. If you want everybody
to have equal outcomes, you have to treat them unequally. So the law. So if you’re better at something, you sell more of your goods and you have twice as much money, but we want to be equal, and we’re going to have
equal amounts of income, somehow the law is going
to have to treat you worse than it treats me. And it’s something I don’t
think that socialists quite get because most of these
people come from the Left and they’re for equal protection, the law should treat everybody equally, but you can’t have equality of outcome unless you treat people differently ’cause people have different merits and people have different
abilities to sell things and different talents. And I think if we can get that
point across to them that, because they’re all for fairness and then they think fairness is equality, but they don’t realize that
one, it’s gonna take violence by whoever has to be the equality police or the fairness police. They’re gonna have to come in and redistribute things through violence. But it’s also gonna take an unequal law, a law that treats people
based on who they are, how well they do and
treats people differently, doesn’t treat people
equally under the law. – Yeah, there’s a chapter
later in your book where you point out and I
feel like you’re talking to some of our progressive
friends that socialism, besides the economics, socialism is particularly
oppressive to free spirits and artists and speech itself cannot be tolerated because of that dynamic
you’re talking about. If everyone’s equal, it means that everyone
is equally oppressed. – Right. And I think there’s
also a scheme of things sort of a gradation from no
socialism or all capitalism to all socialism, and we’re
somewhere sort of in the middle. And one of the points I want to make is that people who argue for
some kinder, gentler socialism is that maybe it’s not possible but it’s particularly not possible the more socialism you get. And there is a point at
which people will resist. So if you tax me 50% of my income well, that’s right, I
could be in America today, and people resist to a certain extent. We vote for people to lower our taxes but we don’t necessarily rebel
or have violent rebellion. But if you tell me or I
tell Matt and Terry Kibbe that you’re going to have six families now that live with you in your house or we’re gonna come and
take the deed to your house, there is a point at
which people will resist and then the question is, we have to get a leader, a socialist. We’ll need a leader that is
efficient at taking your house and can suppress your resistance. And so then the question is, Stalin isn’t, you know, they say he’s an accident or Castro is an accident
– Yeah. – Maybe they’re inherent
and as Hayek said, he says, “Well, you know what? “Maybe the best socialist
leader is the most ruthless.” So you’re actually
selecting for ruthlessness because to take people’s property, you have to be ruthless ultimately. – Yeah. Well, that actually naturally
sort of leads to Pol Pot who arguably was the most ruthless influenced by Marxists
professors in Paris. He maybe was trying to
implement as quickly as possible the purest form of socialism, and he managed to kill by most
estimates one in four people in a four year period
which is just unimaginable. – Grotesque. – Yeah. But his experiment was explicitly violent because he knew he had
to knock people out of and Marx actually talked a
lot about the violent nature of socialism because
you have to force people to stop doing what they’re doing. You have to force them out of this idea that education and
production and creativity and entrepreneurship are good things, and that the shock of just
shooting people on the streets was part of the model. – Right. And I think we have a quote
in the book from Solzhenitsyn who had seen sort of this kind
of state violence up close and he, I can paraphrase it only but to say that you can
have one off violence where you get sort of a bad leader but if it becomes an ideology and it’s led by an ideology
that has this fervent sort of almost religious belief,
then you can kill millions. You can kill one or two
people with a terrible leader. If you want to kill millions, it has to be an ideology,
basically, of violence. – Yeah. I think the most compelling thing that you and Kelley do in this
book, is you tell stories. And you have a friend, an
ophthalmologist, Dr. Ming Wang who happened to be on the wrong side of the Great Leap
Forward and the Cultural, I guess the Cultural Revolution. – Right.
– Is when he was growing up. – He was born in 1960 so he’s about three years older than me. We’re both ophthalmologists, both practice sort of in the same area but when he was 14 or so, so early 1970s, I guess
the cultural revolution probably starts before
then but still at the point when he gets to the age of high school, the people are given a choice either you have to go into internal exile or if you stay, you can’t go to school. There was like one child
could go to school, one child had to be exiled but it was just sort of
absolute for millions of people. And he tried to go to school. His dad, they were both
doctors and he would try to go to sneak into his dad’s
biology or anatomy classes and learn secretly. They caught him doing that
and forbid him from that. But really, I think
some people, the people who really believe in this
kinder, gentler socialism need to read the story of his mom. His mom had a lab. She was a doctor and a scientist and when the Red Guard
came, and the Red Guard were not only explicitly from the government, they were sort of quasi sort
of mobs, she ran to her lab to save her experiments and it’s like, you know, your spine
tingles thinking about this. They beat her within an
inch of death with clubs. And they did this to artists, they did this to all kinds of people. She laid in bed for two years as her bones just healed naturally. No surgery, no splints,
no straightening the bones and just to imagine that. But the push back from the Left is oh, that’s not what we want. Although, historically when you look back, the American Left and the intellectuals thought Stalin was fine. They visited Russia and
thought things were fine. They accepted what they were told. Even some visited Hitler the same way. They visited Mao and they excused it but then when things turned bad and people figured out
how bad it was like, oh that’s not really what I meant. I really like Castro. – Yeah. – Til Castro turns bad
or til Chavez turns bad and that’s why then a big part
of this book is then going, what is their big mantra now? It’s Swedish socialism,
Scandinavian socialism we like. And I think it’s important
to debunk because this is this is Bernie’s main go to. He doesn’t really want the gulag, he wants socialism without the gulag, which may or may not be possible. But Scandinavia is not a
good example of socialism. – Yeah. Yeah, there’s a whole section in here which I think people can
use as talking points explaining that the Scandinavian
countries by and large their experiments on socialism were abandoned a long time ago and they’ve replaced it
with markets, lower capital, lower taxes on businesses,
and fewer labor regulations. They do a lot of things that would make Alexandria
Ocasio’s head explode. – Yeah and there’s a bunch of big lies, I’d say there’s probably
two or three big lies that people need to know about this. The number one big lie is, Bernie says that if you become richer,
I must become poorer. That the economic pie is not
getting bigger for everybody. If a corporation makes money that they’re greedy and terrible and they’re taking it from you and we should burn the mansion
down and get those people and redistribute the money and it’s like, nothing can be further from the truth. The economic pie of the world I think is doubled eight
times in the last 200 years. Poverty is plummeting. Humanprogress.org, we
quote from them a lot. They do a lot of great
research but it’s a big lie that when the rich gets
richer, the poor gets richer the poor get poorer. Everybody is getting richer.
– Yeah. – Second big lie, he says, The top one percent
can pay for everything. You can have a welfare state,
free school, free paid leave, free cars, you name it, free everything and we get it
all from the top one percent. But when you look at Scandinavia, they have a lot of that
so-called free stuff. It isn’t true. They actually have a less
progressive tax code, meaning the middle class
pays much higher taxes. In Scandinavia, there’s a 25% sales tax from everybody from dollar one so that means the poor,
the middle class, 25% and the income tax is 60%
starting around 60,000. So it isn’t true. What he’s actually wanting here is not what they have in Scandinavia. And then you mentioned the taxes. He claims, oh he wants to
be Scandinavian socialism but they’ve had lower
corporate income taxes, almost half of what we pay
here for 20 or 30 years now. – Yeah. And by the way that’s working there. – Exactly, that’s why they’re doing well. They also have private
property, private stock exchange the economic indexes
rank Scandinavia as being really in the top 10 freest countries. Not in the top 10 socialist. In fact, one of the push
backs to him is when he says, “Oh Denmark’s socialist” Very quickly the Prime
Minister of Denmark says, “No, no, we’re not!” He’s afraid people who want
to do business in Denmark and are gonna be like,
they won’t come here if they think we’re
socialists and we’re not. So, Bernie you need to pipe down about what you’re saying
about our country. – You know, another section in the book that I don’t think a lot of
people will have read before is the chapter on eugenics and the history of sort of
the intellectual movement. Early, true progressivism and eugenics were very much hand in hand and
it was that elitist top down We’re actually gonna
re-engineer the human being. – Right. It’s, yeah. I think you could say it’s not true that all socialists were eugenicists but it is true that almost all
eugenicists were socialists. And eugenics basically is this belief that people with lesser
genetics or lesser DNA or imperfections should be excluded either by not letting them be
born or by eliminating them. And so Margaret Sanger
founder of Planned Parenthood was big on eugenics. So were a lot of pretty famous people. Most of them were also
socialists at the same time and it’s because of I think this is an important thing. Once again people say, oh it
was just an accident of history we no longer have that. But really is it an idea that
the individual doesn’t matter. That the collective is important. And if the hive could be better if we eliminated the
lesser people in the hive, it’s about the hive. Whereas those of us who believe in capitalism and individual liberty say, it’s all about the individual. Now the collective does very well if you give the individual liberty and so it really is the
most prosperous form of an economic equation. But we do it because of the liberty part not necessarily because
of the prosperity part. But in the other, when you
care only about the hive, you get neither the
prosperity nor the liberty. – Yeah, yeah. They treat us as pieces of a puzzle or just inputs into a meat
grinder kind of thing. I’ve watched Marxist
professors sort of assume away the individual and the
behavior and that’s what, I guess that’s what Hayek
would call a fatal conceit and it applies to everything. They’re even like trying to
re-engineer the human race and I didn’t know that
John Maynard Keynes also – Was a eugenist, yes.
– The infamous father of really bad macroeconomics was a eugenicist as well. So there’s kind of a rogues gallery there. – Right. – And then when Hitler came along, they were like whoa, whoa! – That’s right, I know.
– I didn’t mean that. – That’s right
– Yeah. – But many of them were
for a forced serialization of the people they thought
were less than perfect. Many of them, and we still
have some people like this. Dr. Watson, of Watson and Crick, of DNA, I think he was the one who said, well, really you can wait a few days to see what the kid’s like
but why don’t we wait a year to see if they really have
what it takes to be very useful in society and at a year determine whether we are keeping them or not. And that leads to this
sort of grisly nature because then it’s usually not individuals who’s also deciding this but then it’s the government
making the definition of who’s useful and who’s not. – Okay, I see that Mitch
McConnell is causing this trouble. (Rand laughing) But I want to close out
with this because clearly I’m imagining this is so
you and your wife Kelley probably you spent a
significant amount of time talking about this and seeing this, this looming threat to America, like, why did you guys decide to do this? – I think we both became very aware, you know, we’re around
a lot of young people, young groups speaking on college campuses and seeing it on television as well. That the youth just seems to
be going rapidly to the Left but then it becomes worrisome if it’s just sort of
ideas that make no sense and they’ll eventually learn better but now they’re really
embracing the term socialism and the idea. And then plus some people say, well, they don’t really know what it is. They just kind of like it and
sounds cool, it sounds fair. But socialism does mean something. Whether they understand
what it means or not, we need to help them to understand that really there isn’t a kinder,
gentler form of socialism. That violence is inherent. It’s an inevitability and
the more socialism you get, the more violence you have to have because people will resist
you taking their freedom. – If someone wanted to buy this book, is it available on the marketplace? Where would you get a copy of this book? – We decided to actually
yes, put it out there being available for the public. – It’s very capitalist approach. – Yes, you can get it on the internet through any of the booksellers. You can go to your local bookstore but The Case Against
Socialism is out there. Kelley and I are very proud of it. But we’re also hoping that it helps influence
our next generation. Jefferson said every generation has to water the tree of liberty and in order to water the
tree, you have to know a little bit about what
makes the tree grow. – Well, we’re gonna
paper the tree at least. (Rand laughing) Thank you, Senator.
– Thank you. – And cheers!
– Cheers! – Thanks for watching Kibbe on Liberty. By now you know this is the most important
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you get notifications. Kibbe on Liberty, mostly
honest conversations with mostly interesting people.

  1. Watch all episodes of the Kibbe on Liberty podcast here: ​https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL36_JCmmBwZrrsXd0VIMJXHBSuWfUm57k

  2. Mister Ron Paul's on to something there takes a violent country to enact many deaths around the world starting with 911 and you see that those people over there didn't do anything we created them gave them names and everything he's basically given Credence to the fact that this country is just that doing what Pol Pot did just a different way

  3. That's because he got ran out of Scandinavia out of a most of those countries over there they wouldn't have it cuz antifa started going over there and they ran them out to Netherlands that's what it was

  4. It's really crazy to hear Ron Paul speak about all that that his son who understands what Eugenics is wow engineered human beings that's what Hitler was studying hell he was actually doing it back then you trying to create the Uber man specific kind of man we're Soldier if you can do that….

  5. As a Swedish citizen I can testify that Sweden is a dystopia, please do NOT follow our example.

    Paying 65-70% of your income isn't what you want to do and watching politicians waste all that money on frivolous, idiotic things isn't something that makes you feel happy.

    Nor does our culture shine in a comparison with pretty much anyone – the liberal Tim Pool called the Swedish society "creepy" and I agree with hin.

    Yes, I'm currently planning my migration to another, less socialistic country. I have some family business left to sort out first.

  6. Bought the book. Can't wait to add some meat to my rebuttal of socialism. I hope this book and Kibbe on Liberty spread far and wide.

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