Personal and Social Responsibility: Academic Integrity Week 2009



so we are pleased to have guarantee cycle of your presentation is personal and social responsibility thank you buy yours well that's all I will say look something about the title first because I want to be completely honest about this when Tom pushed me for a title a couple weeks ago I had no idea what I would talk about and I just happen to have on my desk something about conference that I went to last weekend at that point so in the future and it said educating for personal and social responsibility evening student campus commitments and I said I know how about if I talk about personal and social responsibility because I thought that sounded completely lands and general enough that I can talk about anything I wanted to and somehow some of you may have noticed that this is advertised as a panel it's not I thought about the chairs behind the table and just kind of switching to the other but let's skip that as well if you want to think about this in terms of how is this hoping is organized I'm going to talk about personal and social responsibility so two big sections I'm going to talk a little about integrity and talk a little about perspective taking a little about making a difference and i'll tell you when i'm what i'm shifting but sometimes it's helpful to have a roadmap i'm going to start because i'm a professional philosophers it means that it's all about Plato really there was a philosopher named Alfred North Whitehead who is long dead now but said at one point all of philosophy is a series of footnotes to Plato so I think that may be right the way under the heading of personal responsibility men tell you story because I'm also from a part of the country where that's the way we make our points that's the way we it's all about stories so accidentally tell you a lot of stories to it this story is from Plato from a book called the Republic and it's about a guy named guy geez guy geez was a shepherd and there was one day he's out doing shepherd life things and they're a huge storm blew up and as part of the storm there was an earthquake and the earthquake opened up a huge hole in the ground after the storm passes guy geez being a kind of acquisitive shepherd goes over to the hole in the ground and goes down into the hole where he finds a hollow brass horse that has doors on it stretching credibility more than just but they used to this happened all the time back when Plato to him so he goes in he opens the door of the hollow brass horse and he sees inside there a dead body of stature more than human and having nothing on but a gold ring so we got a mecha-giant here wearing nothing but a gold ring it nagai geez in in addition to being inquisitive about things is also a quiz ative so he took the ring from the figure of giant and put it on his own bigger and went back up now a couple of days later the Shepherd's get together for their monthly shepherd me were they given accounting of oh this mention this many sheep were born this many died this meeting water they have this little meeting and then one of them goes off to report to the king so they're sitting around the fire and it's a board and so guide you starts to turn the ring on his finger and when he turns it so that the the call it the front of the returns it so that it's on the inside he realizes he becomes invisible and other shepherds to start talking like he's not there turns it back the other way any of your peers says he he made several trials of the ring and always with the same result when he turned the colic in works he became invisible when outlets he reappeared now you think that the other guys sitting around the fire would noticed this but you know give me some poetic license here and completo some because he doesn't mention that part of the story so he's guide's realizes he's got something special here he's got a ring that makes him invisible and I'm going to read you the way Plato puts this because I can't put any better whereupon he contrived to be chosen one of the messengers who were sent to the court where as soon as he arrived he said used to the Queen and with her help conspired against the king and slew him and took the kingdom I love it I don't I always thought well I like to think about what that ring had to do with seducing the point but that's for later I didn't get seduced away and kill the king took over the kingdom and now Plato says what if we had two of those rings and we gave one to the most virtuous moral upstanding individual we could find and we gave the other one to the most mean and nasty conniving scheming bicycle personally pathan what would be the difference in their actions you want me to tell you a Plato says nothing he says they would both do the same thing they would both use the rig to their own benefit and in fact it says if you could imagine anybody having this power of becoming invisible and never doing any wrong or touching belong to somebody else that person would be thought to be a most wretched and idiot I won't ask you to come clean about this but I'll ask you to think about what you would do if you had such around and I'll complain about and say I would use it whenever I give this story in class away the pets have some students go home I've never easy I don't I would I don't think I did you know cities of coin kill the king and take over a kingdom but I wouldn't stand in line at the grocery store either I this is it I mean I want you think about this and because I think it gets at this idea of social on personal responsibility if nobody was looking would you still do the right thing and Plato has this character in the story here say that what this proves is that virtue is nothing more than trying to get out of trying to stay out of trouble it's only the edge of the stronger people are virtuous not willingly or because they think that's any good to them individually but out of necessity because things can take example of the ring whenever anybody thinks they can safely get away with being unjust they will now let me be sure to be clear here this isn't this is a view that's in a book by Plato but it's not Plato's it's a view that Plato wants to argue against and here's how he does it he says you owe me understand this problem the owners understand human soul and human soul has three parts treason spirit and desire a psychiatrist psychologist might say in ego superego plaintiffs and reasons period desire the rational part reason always is constantly opposed to the desiring part that part contains all the primitive lust irrational appetites and it has to be kept in check if peace is going to be achieved so he said just like what the body has all these different pieces the body is in excellent shape when each of the parts it's performing its function and doing it well same thing with the soul the good and happy person is somebody who is internally harmonious and your internally harmonious when these three pieces are in balance plate though you can example about a desperately thirsty man in the desert who comes upon some water and so excited to see the water and then he sees a sign that says danger do not drink this is poison and the rational part overcomes the desiring part to lead him away from there and it's by the way that desire and spirit and it's spirit that animates that moves you were waiting from or toward after this little tug of war is taking place the example that I use that maybe I don't know what this is I've never been a desperately thirsty person in a desert but I have this little weakness about donuts i'm pretty sure that donuts are proof that God exists and because of that I try to stay as far as possible away from donuts at all times but at least once a year maybe even once a semester some student group brings in Donuts rebel leave them in the department office and I don't I can sit in my office I hear them they say he and it's like this whole remember the videos you just have to see on maybe Europe and the CD generation now Briggs film strips for me but you had the thing with the good good person and that it's Jiminy Cricket and so I'm hearing going I don't you know you want a donut they're really good and then reason is saying don't go get a donut you know you'll feel guilty later if you eat the donut now fight against it fight against it and okay you don't go there going to eat them all up no those guys are going to eat up all those donuts and you can just have one and you can run extra extra mileage you can write you can get rid of it go go now you've got the no man's wait wait you're making me hungry you've also got you know this size going look if you're going to just take the doughnuts in classroom to your thighs right now because that's where they're going right there's no point in even running them through the system here this really this is exactly the same sort of thing that that Plato's talking about and you all we all have our doughnuts whatever it is everybody's got something that you know you shouldn't ought to do but you really want to do you know philosophers talk about the first-order and second-order preferences you have a preference for this but you wish that you didn't have the preference you wish you had a different preference oh so we've got a desire spirit reason making up the sole desire motivates of spirit animates reason guides us and in the final analysis Plato says the reason that you should be moral the reason you shouldn't use the ring if you had one for bad purposes is because it will make you unhappy because its internal disharmony between the three pieces of the soul always results in unhappiness so it turns out to be kind of a self-interested answer do this because you'll be unhappy if you don't now Plato had a student named Aristotle who had a slightly different take on this and I want to talk about Aristotle by way of talking just a little bit about integrity the word integrity comes from Latin integer which means whole or complete so I know that I looked it up on Wikipedia so we're talking about inner wholeness and consistency I heard people talk about integrity as being true to yourself people have integrity to the extent that they behave according to the values and beliefs and principles that they say they have now here's how this goes to Aristotle Aristotle says you act virtuously when you act like a vicious person would act and what does that mean well it means when you act on settled flighty settled dispositions to exhibit virtues like courage generosity Aristotle as a whole chapter it was just a list of virtues sort of like character in as a list of virtues you know character ahead and the signs along the highway and the thing there's a virtue of the month this one's this month i think is responsibility we just switch months with that another way to think about this is by reference to what we mean when we describe someone is acting in character we have a certain idea about the way somebody is when they are acting out of character we we questioned if we notice it we could say they are not acting so characters is the bundle of virtues or vices that make it up who we are for Aristotle the traits themselves are often just too little or too much of a particular virtue and he advises us to avoid of both excess and deficiency and act in accord with a mean of moderation but the mean will be the same for all persons in all situations the trick is in escs from Aristotle to experience the right emotions and perform the right actions at the right times and on the right occasions and toward the right persons and for the right causes and in the right manner but we've got it nailed down there let me give you an example and this is going to be a great one because where you select their camera person okay I'm gonna move now this is an example that sort of from Aristotle I said that the perp that their vices and virtues are salt too much or too little that's when we go wrong but he gives us this right thing that time like motion ok so imagine you're in a babble about to be in about you're in the army but it's old-timey army stuff some of you have no used to be that people actually have to look at one another before they killed each other so this is one of those I can see in Civil War moves or somebody got one army on one side of the field one army on the other side of the field ok now let's say you're in this army over here and you're looking across the field and you see over there 40,000 people in the other army and you look around you at the three other people and your army for 40,000 if you're a response to this situation is to lower your gun and go running across the field shooting away does that seem like the right action at the right time in the right manner for the right reasons for the right then it doesn't Aristotle says that's an excess of courage we call it fool hardiness or rashness turning the other way now you're in this army and you're over here with 30 9999 of your comrades and you look across the field and you see those for poor suckers over on the other side if your response is to turn around and squeal and run this way does that seem like the right action at the right time for the right reasons in the right manner know Aristotle would say that's a deficiency of courage we call it cowardice so you see in each case he said there are these character traits and we go wrong when we have excess or deficiency but we can't just tell you exactly what you ought to do in any particular situation context is always going to matter because aerosol says I don't know which army you're in so there's a right thing for you to do if you're in that RV and a right thing to do in this army they're different but in each case there's only one it's a matter of finding this this mean between exits and efficiency and acting with integrity consistency with the character that you profess to have and we just did what what I just did there was I guess we could say that was an exercising perspective taking I heard at this conference I was at this last week that students and I guess it's true for anybody test out as being more ethical not just more informed but more ethical when they are able to do this perspective taking when they are able to see what it is for another person it's there well let's just call it cultural competence is when you write that down there's a guy at the Harvard Graduate School of Education his name is hunter gehlbach and he is working now at looking at strategies that people use to interpret the behavior of other people according to him very little is known about how this happens about how perspective-taking campus and how effective these strategies different strategies are he said I think is really interesting he says quote one strategy that people often use is to put themselves in someone else's shoes but this could be a really bad strategy if I'm very different from you and i project my background and my personal history on to your situation there's a pretty good chance I'm going to think something different from you that's the end of the book and I'll I mean I think so my mom her somebody always said you know you have to walk a mile in somebody else's shoes you have it and I think what he's pointing us it's not that easy that we have to take into account all this baggage that we bring with us way I have a little quick example about this I tend to lose all virtue that i might have ever had when i get behind the wheel of a car I'm not a I'm not a patient person and everybody else on the road except me is amusement so I I try to remember this story that somebody told me they had a friend or island where it comes from there's story about a guy who used to get really impatient all the time and then his wife was a caterer and they were doing a wedding and the van broke down and so he had to drive from the business to the wedding with the wedding cake in the trunk of his car I don't wipe it trunks to the back seat maybe it's part of the story it's just like okay mike says so he has in the Chinese he said I've never driven so slow in on my life because I was trying to keep the wedding cake from sliding all over the trunk of the car on a good day on a very very good day I can remind myself before I start screaming hey cut him some slack they might have a wedding cake in the truck it's a little bit of perspective taking it's not you know it's also the stories we tell ourselves to get through but in saying that person's got something going on it's not just all about me that person only drives once a week and they're come going back in the grocery store and it's sort of a trivial example but I think it gets as the idea of what we're talking about is is getting away from the idea that everybody is like you everybody has the same experiences in attitudes about things as you do okay so we've done put personal responsibility integrity perspective taking social responsibility I heard this great story at this conference is it again and I turned out it's a famous story I at least it seemed like everybody else there to hurt it but I did not and I found it in a lot of different places on the internet so Google is my friend it's called the parable of the river I don't know her once upon a time there was a little small village on a river and the people there were good in life in the village was good and one day couple of villagers are outside and they noticed a baby floating down the river one of them immediately jumps and swims out saves the baby from drowning the next day there are two babies in their River these guys jump out there rescue the babies the next day there for the next day they're a and the next day there are 16 the villagers get all organized set up watchtowers trim them they have teams of swimmers you can go out and bring the babies in rescue squads working 24 hours a day because it just keeps multiplying they didn't they couldn't save all the babies but they saved a lot of them they felt they were doing good I kept this little story a little bit shorter than I've got so one day they're all out there do getting ready to do their thing there in their assigned places and they notice this one guy who has turned and it's headed upriver hey what are you doing you can't abandon your post we need you there they're babies come what are you doing where you go and says I'm going to see you strong babies in the river here's the point you've already got right yeah we can and we often like to have band-aid solutions to problems right we'll solve this problem that's right in front of us and never think about what we might do to keep the problem from arising in the first place so sometimes and i deceived you know now that I'm like all up to the story I know that people use it to talk about the difference between charity and social justice so charity is a matter of helping the person in front of you social justice as a matter of making it changing conditions structures so that there's not a person in front um so you know you can sort of like the give a man a fish you feed him for a day teach a man to fish you feed it for the rest of his life I have to say as well let me ask you what you think about that person via tom about that or I actually got a question what do you think of this parable how do you think it might apply to our society or our world today this is a partner tomatoes I know at all I just want to think I said I was here by knowing in my classes we're talking about crime I use the analogy of the spigot a spill spigot being the faucet and in the analogy the spills the crime that's occurring the criminals that are doing it then people come along to try to mop that up and throw it into prison and do this and give him some treatment so on and that really is just trying to take care of the condition that's been produced without going to the spigot and the faucet to the child abuse that's causing his behavior to happen in first place the neglect is on and trying to turn that off and it's you know if it's the same analogy you're using but I don't feel in very real terms that is the way to best deal with physician is to go back to the founding causes of crimes not the problem the city but you can't abandon the people that are already in a crisis so you still have to pull my babies out of the river right you don't stop pulling the babies out of it everybody didn't go off upstream there's always the possibility that the babies were put in the river for a reason that they were being sent down stream beyond this village to somebody who was expecting to find were they in little fast right we can hit that part we should let them continue going this summer we should go both directions let's find out why different River the biologists didn't be concerned about world population sees you strolled a little bit differently naturally they're very real issues about do we send aid to Africa or and gana standard or whatever and keep all those people alive for now but 20 years from now when the world population is it a go whatever the projections are put everybody in a bad situation and it doesn't seem it seems to go against our humanitarian nature and not help but the problem that we're creating late and so I just see this village at some point be overrun with kids and there are too many mouths to feed Tyrion that the technology and the kids start starving because they're farmers can't produce enough food that's my thing what I make them a parable and we're all probably guilty of it is if we do something we should import the simple solution which makes us feel good that we've done something and might get wet swimming out there but there's a lot of complexity and not a lot of confusion and not a lot of work involved relative relative to the Union I mean that some ways you know life is simpler when there's a right and wrong life gets really complicated when when you realize there it's not that simple that's not what I take home instead of a right wrong there's a which is the best of two beds possibilities um I do it and you heard this expression slacktivism this is like easy it's activism but it's only the easy way I'll be an activist if that means all I have to do is get a little plastic bracelet and wear it or put a bumper sticker on my car that's that's it going to be in the extent of my commitment but I'm behind you all the way then we will receive your play yeah so I get a virtue points yeah I think there's a Tom makes a very good point and that is that sometimes the reviews it as well sometimes the easy thing to do is not in the long run the best thing to do there are there's a philosopher whose name is Garrett Hardin was famous for making the argument that we should not send aid to countries who were population was starving because by doing that all we did was keep him a lot of long enough to reproduce even more so that there would be more children who the stars he we should remember that symbol of Christianity is across not a teddy bear is that yet the harder thing to do like that kind of strictly brash most beautiful how do we address problems that best suit our interest you know and I kind of just ignore the overall suffering people kind of unrealistic like not just because well sounds to me we would do if you saw a starving person who wrote you might justify way to say well this is why i'm not going to prepare them because in the long run those are starving and who carries their dream Society I think the right answer is to address those kinds of problems in a way that creates sustainable societies of communities that we're not just giving it to people who can't support themselves hoping to help them develop their own economies and society so that they can help themselves to sing another store uh a man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell into the hands Roberts who stripped and me and left him for dead beside the road a couple other people came by first didn't want any part of it across to the other side of the road and then a guy let's call him a Samaritan while traveling Kingdom saw him he was moved with pity he went to him and bandaged his wounds put him on his own animal brought it to an end and took care of it the next day took out a little money gave it to the innkeeper said take care of him when I come back I'll repay you anything in addition to this than to spend that a band-aid solution to a big problem should the Samaritan that these are ruthless man comes leaving it in the ditch do we leave him there in the ditch and say we can't save everybody let's go and find out what the causes of this sort of crime are or do we say let's get this guy out and then we'll go see what the causes are well there's our hitch in here yet I wasn't arguing to leave in a ditch but it's not gone to the root of the problem it's taken care of this individual but so what could he do to go further than that my son IRA criminality it's like there you go down the tech my back yeah i mean the problem here is travelers being attacked on on the road right so how do we do we solve that problem i might be wandering out in correct territory but if i were tying together personal responsibility and social responsibility it really gets back to a lot of what's being said the personally responsible thing to do is to do something that makes you feel good with yourself and if helping another person who is suffering is something that makes you feel good about yourself then you do that but it doesn't obviate your reason in that this problem was created by something what can I also do about that I mean it's kind of a marriage of personal and social responsibility yeah I went I want it to be that but I don't want it to be because it makes me feel good about myself by none because there are things that make me feel good about myself that I don't think even solve individual problems I'm thinking of a nephew of mine who is completely out of control because the easiest thing to do and think it makes you feel good about yourselves like that sway and you know I mean this there are things we do that we would they're not eating that we would rather i also have a dog that I would spoil in a lot of ways more than I did except I know that that's not really in the best interest of it over so you wouldn't feel good about yourself doing that oh I I think you you feel good about yourself if you give somebody that you love something that they want that may be argumentative but not if I know it's to their detriment I think we have preferences and we have preferences that we wish we can add the preferences that we do have it may be that same sweet I think that that we do often do that and yeah it's easy to throw some money because now that makes me feel feel good about myself but it doesn't do anything about the larger problem that what about autism no have no benefit to us but we know that they're going to be positive or who were trying to come like we don't see the rewards for itself but we can see them in other people though with that apply well depends on who you ask there's a philosopher named thomas hobbes who said there's no such thing as altruism it's impossible this is a theory called psychological egoism and it says we are just put together in such a way that we can't ever act except in a way that we think is for our own benefit and so when I present to you a case that looks like somebody doing something that they're getting their benefit out off just prove the good of somebody else that all the egoist can always say Oh know there are other than get it for other reasons mother Teresa just really wanted to get into heaven so she was doing it for that in every case they can do this and even if you push a part if they say oh well they were they were so liminal some liminal desires which you can't argue with there are other people like Aristotle who would say you know the problem here is we're not maybe it's a matter with the nephew its excess its excess of concern for his well-being sets of love sometimes we call it doting or spoiling we know what deficiency is maybe that's that's excess in Aristotle it's a problem is you've gone too far you've missed the bet that midpoint again something that's two different ways I had a question on Ian said how did have these parables the Good Samaritan and a river relate to hunger and homelessness or any other social problem but I think we've already we already made that so I got one more one more story in you may have heard this one too I didn't make any of these up to the one about the Good Samaritan things one day right that would do along with that idea of a neutral competence sounds like play drew it was going okay one day there's a little girl walking along a beach and she notices thousands of starfish just just out of reach of the water and off in the distance she sees an old woman who is bending down reaching for something and causing something back into the waves and she approaches and realizes that she's tossing the starfish back into the ocean one by one now if I said it's a little girl but she's precocious obviously because she goes over to the the woman and she says you know if there are thousands of starfish on the beach and there are miles and miles of beach there are so many out here the waves are just going to keep dumping them out here all day why are you wasting your time what difference will this make the own beds down picks up the starfish throws it into the water back into the waves and said well I've made a difference to that one which puts me right back into the you know grab the babies individually from the water I recognize that but I wanted to sort of finish with an inspiring go thou and do likewise which is sort of way the Good Samaritan story is also well if there's no way of influencing the underlying cause and all you can do is to look to do what you can with what is available yeah and I would suggest that they're off there usually is a way of getting at the underlying cause but we may not know what it is and so we ought to do this and it may be something it's almost always something that takes more than just an individual so the fact that you can't solve the whole problem does it mean you don't have any personal responsibility to do what you can to make it better so I here's my last thing again it's something I learned from the con tal that gives we really cobble together a bunch of things that that I picked up on very recently except for play them what it's the first question get the whole personal in social risk come get the facts so what so what what does that mean it's just something that we that is a problem is there an issue here that needs to be resolved is there somebody we can say something that needs to be addressed now what so what do we do about it and uh oh but mike is going to ask a question yeah yeah that's all right because there's a lot of people that feel that perhaps the best thing they could possibly do would be a good role model and what that good role model might do is take care of themselves get themselves in education get themselves a job save up their money and not put on anybody else that they have to go out to do things for me they have to come save me identity so the most socially responsible thing I could possibly do is let everyone suffer the suffering because what they really need to do is to learn to take care of themselves Rick's germs and that if everybody would take care of themselves we wouldn't really have any problems yeah and I guess I would suggest that people who say that are deficient in the ability to take the perspective of someone they are they they don't see people who are in a different situation as at all like they'll miss me and so to them it seems like an easy answer I'll give you an example that may be because of your field or it's like the hear about a woman who has been abused by her husband for years and years of somebody always says well why didn't you just lead through it but they're all sorts of reasons why and so the failure to recognize those reasons is a failure perspective I need to piggyback on what Mike said I think some of it also has to do with his personal energy in town I guess for example Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi our models that I kept used my classes and the pet and these were two gentlemen who clearly had both the talent imagination and also the energy for to effect a social change for larger people I don't have the imagination or the energy I think for some people it taking care of themselves is about limited and I think also if we all go through different chapters our lives where we have dinner I look at some women who are single mothers and children and they are trying to get an education and trying to hold down a job and be a good mother and they don't have the time or the energy to be affecting the social change they hold their own house together they serve society and then 20 years and then and you yeah i mean this is this is I don't want to go too far down this road but you know Gandhi wasn't really present for it Stanley yeah right and so there's yeah always what you can say yeah well less use Gandhi as our model well for what not for how a father should be all right well and there's stories about Martin Luther King philandering and maybe plagiarizing on his dissertation yeah I think that's a great kind in to bring this back to academic integrity just for a minute there's surveys that have been done some of the results are over there that indicate that you know sixty to eighty percent of students admit to having cheated or plagiarized or something in one of their courses and so if that's a problem that we perceive do we as a society as the university community do we attack that more from this as a social problem or a personal issue because I think that goes to the heart of it it's not that simple but it kind of goes to the heart of the sorts of things that we try to do like having academic integrity week is if we have if we perceive a problem at what direction are our efforts most going to be most beneficial find a social problem or put a bandaid is dealing with individual students a band-aid issue and we should be looking at that the bigger societal problems have led to this or is it not a societal problem he is so so maybe there's too much emphasis on grades and if we focus solely on learning and just threw out the concept of grades there'd be less academic integrity violations there is a school that tried that years ago thought it worthwhile liberal arts school after a few years the students rebalancing said we want grades back especially those trying to get into graduate programs your med school and stuff like that they wanted great not just pass-fail on every course so I mean but I don't know where were to attempt this I think the answer is no I mean this students he was school but the students one of the grades because of something else not because I thought they weren't getting a good experience they wanted it because people outside that environment didn't know how to evaluate them without having grades attached to him so there was very practical getting there so I mean I think when we talk about change it's got to be really structural I don't know I remember last year actually being on a panel with other people daring this this this way and somebody talked about there being a difference in the culture of different I mean there was talking about different different countries and there's a different attitude towards cheating in Asia than there is here and not just that patients go out jeans fine it's what we consider cheating they don't I mean that's the difference there and we talked about type that was Dixon talking about experiences China yeah the other woman was talking about a different pose from you too and that was the pressure to get into certain schools was so great that cheating was just rampant because of something I begins because of an exterior or an external sort of motive curse you could internalize that for example here at the University a student doesn't get an effort they've been found cheating they can get an F X all right XL well you know what I mean as opposed to perhaps a more effective way which is expulsion from the University and doing it in such a way that they'll be inadmissible to any university or college for the rest of their life in other words you make the punishment for the individual so great that if people are reasonable and they see this happening design students ex-students now they won't do it anymore yeah this is why people don't spit gone straight signal yeah you guys won't remember this but retaining some yeah it was an American over there right we've got arrested for littering and the punishment was caning in albuq at what in public in public yet so beautiful speaking yeah yeah that's one way to go with it you know maybe it's the flip side of trying to deal with something at a big social problem thing when really it's about make the person accountable yeah people would stop speeding if we shot all speakers well it makes you ever wonder she fit the corn yeah that's good to a car session oh well they're the same way perfect do making the punishment fit the crime is the topic of the two o'clock session which we led by mr. dr. talk see over there thanks to you




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