Milo: Forbidden Conversation

I’m speaking today with Milo Yiannopoulos. Milo is a hard man to categorize, part journalists, part performance artist,
part Agent Provocateur part comedian at WIPP and whit. Yiannopoulos is a man of immense
and complex self-contradiction. He’s half Greek and half Irish,
but is known as an Englishman to the Americans with whom
he has communicated extensively He’s gay, Jewish by descent. He married his long-term boyfriend
an African-American man in Hawaii in 2017 but faces frequent accusations of racism. He is or was strangely attractive
to young American Republicans and completed a successful
and controversy-ridden tour of US universities in 2016 and 2017. For at least two years he was one
of the most well known internet celebrities, let’s say on the political front, caused more uproar than any other
single person that I can think of. He collected his fair share of enemies along the way he’s often accused for example of being an all-right supporter an accusation Justified in the view of those who opposed him by his association with Breitbart for whom he was an editor in My view for what it’s worth Milo was such a figure of inner contradiction and outer controversy that I believed from the beginning that his time was numbered Nonetheless, the circumstances of his demise were unpredictable. I would say nuts in keeping with his apparent destiny After revealing details of his early sexual experiences at the hands of a 29 year old priest who he refused to name He stated that he was an active participant in the events and that such occurrences were far more common and far more consensual than people were willing to admit I Don’t think he ever recovered from the controversy that those comments generated. I Should finish by saying that Milo is definitely now on the list of those who no one Unacceptably socially should ever speak to which I suppose is one of the reason is why I’m talking to him I want to know what happened to him and his old words and I don’t really give a damn if that’s politically incorrect Thanks Milo for agreeing to be on my channel and podcast Thank you very much for having me. Um, I take a slightly less fatalistic view of my prospects than your introduction would suggest but Certainly. I went through an extraordinary tumble and I’m happy to share my thoughts about it with you. Yeah, well, let’s let’s start by reviewing some of your history if you wouldn’t mind Tell me tell me let’s start with a bit of your history in the UK before you came to the u.s it’s been long enough so that I think some biographical information would be useful for people so Tell me tell me about your your life in the UK before he came to the US Then let’s start talking about what happened to you as soon as you came over to North America Sure, um I Had a very unhappy life Particularly a very unhappy 20s In London, I started out for the journalists and some quite prestigious publications I was in a relationship. That was I Don’t think healthy or happy for either person involved. I Was searching I think I was looking I couldn’t work out yet What I was what I was for what my purpose was and it wasn’t until I got to America I discovered what it was, but I started to explore at least what would eventually become my I Suppose my civic function as bomb-thrower and provocateur Right the beginning of my career in journalism. I mean, I I was fairly predictably come from a broken home Not much love for Forel from either parent And I started I got lucky combination, I guess of luck and talent writing for the Telegraph which is the most prestigious newspaper in Britain and I Began to notice the gap between the world that I was being asked to describe and the world that I could see existed At the time I was writing about Sarah it was being asked to say that Women were having a dreadful time of it in the emerging startup ecosystem in London Which as far as I could tell was the exact opposite of the truth and eventually these fissures got wider and wider to the point where I I Sort of had this this moment where I realized that my profession was a crock of you-know-what And that if I wanted to if I wanted to do something worthwhile with my life, I should either Blow it up from the inside by being one. I’ll pick something else to do and That was around the time that I Attracted the attention of Breitbart the site in the US and I started from London writing from Breitbart in the u.s. In that time I didn’t know what it was. I never met Andrew Breitbart and I didn’t know who he was either It was to begin with it’s a funny thing when you look at things in retrospect, you know you get involved with people in organizations that develop a particular way over time and then it looks From historical perspective like that was self-evident from the beginning, but certainly not when you’re dealing with a new organization Yeah, I mean it was new ish. I don’t think that the values of Breitbart changed a lot, but I think perhaps it’s Its murderous operandi, I think perhaps the way that it conducted itself as an organization shifted into high gear When Steve Benin and I were there And I was doing the culture war stuff and Steve was using the rest of the site as a sort of battering ram politically So, I mean I bear a large part of the responsibility for Breitbart becoming what it eventually became Although I don’t think they’ve held on to that legacy very well. I think it’s a little sad the way that there When I was there we used to make the news and now they’re sort of chasing off the turning-point You know with stories that could have been written in 2015-16 I don’t think they’ve managed to maintain the Culturally defining Excitement that was there when I was there, which I think is a functionary in Steve working together I Suppose my centre of gravity just started shifting to the US. I started getting speak it colleges and Sooner or later one day. I just sort of thought there was six of them in a row So I thought was not quite flying home between them. I may as well just stay And just do sort of college after college and then suddenly I found myself Booking more of them and wondering why I should bother going home and my center of gravity editorially and and In you know other ways was shifting to the u.s. too. So I Over the course of six or nine months began writing more at the States thinking more about the States being in it talking about it and then I suppose fast forward a year, perhaps and I Was one of the two or three people driving, you know Breitbart as this extraordinary momentous Fascinating dysfunctional editorial force for the last election So, what was it that attracted you do you think to the United States and the political concerns there why away from the UK I Don’t think Britain Handles iconoclasts very well and it particularly doesn’t handle bombastic ones and I think a lot of people with outsized personalities Find themselves Investigating America as an alternative birth because I think America has a much higher tolerance for Outside personalities. Yeah Well, it’s pretty clear that you had some of the characteristics that made people that make people stars You know that make people personalities. It was obvious pretty much from the step This is why I’m not worried in the long term about my career prospects. You know, I had a Stratospheric rise over a couple of years and you know a painful tumble But talent is talent and talent always wins and I’ve got 40 years ahead of me You know of whatever I choose to do with it, so I’m not worried in the long time about my career prospects good well, we can talk about your your descent and Sort of catastrophe that accompanied it and maybe about how you see yourself pulling Yourself how you see? Being pulled out of that. I’d like to hear about that as well So what in the world do you think made you so attractive to American Republicans? I mean this is one of the things that struck me about you right from the beginning because it’s not exactly like you’re a poster boy for what you would assume a conservative American Republicans would be attracted to so only thing they quite liked the fact that I was Reflecting their views in a package that you would more often think would be a liberal and of course I you know made that part of the act and part of the brand It’s kind of like, you know, all these things and yet still Republican, but the real answer is joy there’s a there’s a joylessness about a lot of Conservative activist authors and speakers and there’s a joylessness in intellectual darkweb, too It’s a very fun ‘less place and I look at I look out at the public intellectuals and commentators and speakers who are currently enjoying a Moment in the Sun and each of them is in their own way quite. Joyless quite devoid of mirth, and I think that people liked my sense of mischief and mice and they liked the fact that I was always smiling and I think it’s a I mean, it’s it’s Unusual to see somebody talking about really serious things who is the subject of the most extraordinary and relentless abuse who nonetheless is always smiling and I Have always been that person I’ve never stopped not in 2017-18 or today and I think it will find that very mesmerizing and very attractive because And very dyslexic and difficult to understand given the circumstances and the apparent seriousness of the topics. You know, I mean there is I Think it’s I think it’s to do with I Mean, you know joy is Christianity’s great gifts to Western civilization laughter, you know The medieval church is you know this place of song and of dance I think Christianity has become quite joyless the only places where there’s a really impassioned happy spirit of worshipers and black churches but white evangelical Protestantism in the US has become I think Quite suffocating. And joyless. I think I like the public square as a whole in General is a miserable place. Yeah sure is a miserable place if you turn the television on people are miserable I think there’s a there’s something about me that something may be missing in my brain That doesn’t get ground down by it and I’m watching you know I had my you know moment the Sun some other people are having a moment in the Sun now that will you know That too will pass and I’m watching them and I’m watching them all getting ground down I’m what how do you well, that’s a good that’s a real question. It’s of interest to me from a psychological perspective. I mean You know my suspicions it’s obviously that you’re extremely extroverted I’m not saving any particular brilliance for noting that and also that you’re extremely open and that’s the creativity dimension, but I’m wondering about your Scores on neuroticism. It’s like you were you were subject to a tremendous amount of controversy and and then Quite a precipitous fall under strange and complicated circumstances and you seemed to be able to survive that and You just described yourself as a relatively. Joyful person. I mean, I’m a very happy person. I think that Listen, I mean, you know that conservatives are only Out and off the playing field when they choose to be Because there’s such as this there’s so few of us in such a wide open market The reason I’m not worried about my prospects in the long term is I still wake up every day with joy in my heart Brimming with energy and ideas most I don’t know anybody in public life not one person in public life who could have gone through what I went through and not been broken by it, but I’m not It hasn’t beaten me. And I think that nuts have come down to a combination of personal characteristics that I don’t think many of possess and That’s Part of that is you know not being No III, it’s impossible to intimidate me. For instance. I don’t get scared of things. I’m not scared of people I don’t feel Perhaps are the same degree that other people do embarrassment and shame so I don’t mind Playing the fool playing Falstaff clowning, you know I don’t mind suppressing myself laughing at myself because because through that I’m able to point to two truths that are real and big and beautiful in a poll um I’d not an egotist so I don’t and I think that’s part the same thing. I don’t mind humbling myself Because I play it having a big ego, but I don’t really and I’m not Ground down or broken or upset by Things that you know that don’t matter that much. I mean I have love in my life. I have achieved more than ninety, nine point eight percent of journalists political activists You know public figures you and I are the only people who have achieved remotely close to our level of success in our you know in the last ten years worth of libertarian conservative IDW, you know, whatever whatever this grand nexus Ecosystem is that we both belong to you Vanaya be any two people who you know, you know to have achieved a greater success at it And I’ve had terrible things happen to me. You’re fortunate and I think nothing bad has really happens to you yet. I can’t think of anything really awful what’s happened to you aside from the Cambridge thing, which I think I Think you brought that on yourself, and I don’t think it was too much of a big deal anyway But nothing really bad has happened to you. The worst thing imaginable has happened to me I had to stand up in front of the world and Tell them That I had been sexually abused as a child and that this is why I’d spoken Loosely and encourse Lee and used a formulation that I regretted about something that had happened to me At the same time trying to make twice you also see when I’m gonna stop making jokes about that or anything else For other people, I think that level of of public ritual humiliation would simply have snapped them And it didn’t me And I don’t know. I mean you’re the You had the so-called jokes But perhaps you have a some insight of you on this the only person I know my personal life that friend Who has similar qualities and also? To whom criticism is It’s a game and she’s able to very an interesting thing is not you know it’s not it’s not enough to say that we’re let’s say sociopathic because quite clearly we’re both not wouldn’t be able to Have some of the insights we do and we wouldn’t have the love in our lives that we do if we were sociopathic so it’s not that but we do both have an ability to just pick things up put them over there and not allow them to To borrow in and have an entry about seems that seems to me to be that relatively rare combination of extreme Extraversion and very low neuroticism. That’s not the same as sociopathy. I think you’re right about that. I think maybe that’s what I’ve got some people are just not that affected emotionally by Negative events, you know Some people are devastated by the smallest of obstacles and some people can roll with punches that would take a normal person out and continue to get back up and it’s Things do bother me in my personal life, but they’re the things that are actually significant whether it’s to do with my family or You know my loved one or or whatever it is that there are things that I that in my brain are emotionally significant serious things worthy of Unfettered access to my emotions if you like and they have that and they produce very strong reactions in both directions a very passionate person I can even be hot-headed, you know when I’m Defending somebody I love for instance, but there’s another world which is the professional world, which is to me Just a just a big game. It’s a big fun game and this the reason I’ve always Kind of a trickster, you know, I mean, I think that’s part of it That that you do there is a game-like element to what you’re doing and and I very much see what I’m doing In life and will be doing for the next 40 years as playing a very complex and very enjoyable game of and very, you know a game of snakes and ladders and just because I Hit a ladder on one of my first turns and then immediately the snake took me back to the front row It doesn’t mean the game is over You know, in fact it just means you you’ve learned the rules so That’s I suppose why I find it difficult to take too. Seriously, you know Harrowing introspection about you know, whatever because it just that’s not how I pretend the situation I can look dispassionately what happened and why and we can talk about that and I have some ideas about that But I Don’t have a I Don’t have a sort of emotional. I don’t have anything to offload about it Really? Okay. Okay what so you know when when that conversation about your early childhood sexual experiences first came out I listened to it and I thought that There was tremendous trouble brewing there, you know for a variety of reasons and if you remember I Phoned you at that point and suggested that we had a conversation and we made some efforts to manage that that never came to fruition And I always felt that that was unfortunate. And so I’d like to if you don’t mind I’d like to ask you about that situation because You know, I had a lot of mixed feelings about what you said. I like many people and they weren’t particularly judgmental, by the way, I mean so You didn’t you correct me if I’m wrong here because I want to get this story straight Mmm-hmm you related some experiences you had with a priest who is twice your age, right? Something like that. Yeah approximating approximately doubt. You were about 14. I Think it was a little older than that actually Okay, okay. It’s difficult to judge ages when you are 14 I think I thought I think I thought that he was younger than he was at the time and Subsequently found out he was perhaps 10 years older than I thought he was And so arguably he was someone who is in a position of authority and that What he did with you was something that he shouldn’t have done and also It’s highly probable given the nature of such things that you were by no means his only let’s say target hmm now when I heard you talk about that the first thing that struck me about the way that you formulated it was your refusal to play victim Not actually funded see myself as one I know. I know I know that I know that and that actually struck me as rather admirable because you came forward and said This is an uncomfortable truth But you know I was of sufficient age to have a mind of my own and this was something I was pursuing of my own volition And then it’s how I felt at the time and you talked about the the abuse of authority or whatever I’ve never met an authority. I recognized or respect, you know, people have to earn my respect I have never encountered a person in a position of responsibility or authority who I have respected and And deferred to merely by virtue of their office or their position. I Just I sort of constitutionally don’t recognize Authority. So it that element of it did not strike me until someone Because I don’t imagine that you were much different in some sense when you were 14 then you are now You know apart from obvious motivation you’re Assertive and provocative person and you’re an icon of class and I can certainly see that That intrinsic respect for authority which so oddly often characterizes conservatives by the way is quite absent in you and so and I thought that given it because we have it as the that’s the tabloid gadfly constantly taking potshots at the institutions that also secretly loved and are grateful for but you are dedicated to keeping them on the ground and not you know, it’s the difference between You know the the British tabloids which love to torment our Prime Minister and the White House Correspondents Dinner where journalists are seeking to participate in that prestige rather then Bring these people down to earth and make sure they never go a full day taking themselves too. Seriously So I think I think that’s a perhaps a british. It’s a bit of british a bit of the british psyche well, no, that seems given my Interactions with British journalists, that seems like a perfectly appropriate statement now despite the fact that when I heard you speak about what happened to you and my Admiration for your refusal to play innocent victim. I also had contradictory ideas that I think were more a function of my clinical training and There were two of them that I’d like to discuss with you. I mean the first is You know when you think about yourself as a 14 year old you think about that 14 year old as it as yourself you don’t necessarily think about that 14 year old as a 14 year old and You know when you remember your 14 year old self and then you go out and you see some 14 year olds it’s actually quite a shock or it can be quite a shock because 14 year olds are often a lot younger and a lot more clueless than you. Are you? yeah, then you remember yourself being you know, I think I know where you’re going with this and I Well in Seoul, so good good well cuz the second part of what I thought was that like It and and this is this the incredibly tricky part of this conversation As far as I’m concerned, I mean one of the other things that got you in real trouble Apart from the fact that you wouldn’t name your the person that you interacted with your abuser, so to speak was that you made the Unforgiveable case I think publicly the this sort of thing happened far more commonly than people were willing to admit and I just as soon as you said that I thought man you’re You’re dead in the water because it was interesting. What do you mean good? Well true that Maybe it’s not something that can be publicly discussed. It’s not You know in it okay, I went a bit further than just that I took it I took it a step further even and said that not only is This something that happens far more often than people are willing to admit it is a function of gay life and gay Adolescence flossing whatever and It is a proper subject for humor. And I insist on it being a promise. Oh, yeah well I wasn’t even gonna bring those two things up because I thought that just you know that Merely bringing up the first part of that because enough trouble, but I’m glad that you did well because there’s a serious conversation that has to be had about this and the damn conversation hasn’t happened and I don’t mean specifically about Even specifically about your particular experience, although I think it’s a way into the conversation It’s like the first question is well It’d be it’d be interesting to take apart Some of your claims and I’d like to do that with your permission and I don’t expect this to be an easy conversation Notice, I wasn’t expecting to be so go ahead. Okay? Okay. So the first thing I would say is that It isn’t obvious to me that even if you were a willing participant in what happened to you when you were 14 that that Justifies what happened to you on the part of the person with whom you were participating? Well, of course, it doesn’t but the way I have pretended it was that it was me right But but and and and when I said a moment ago I think I know where you’re going with this. I can interject with a very small data point that I think explains How I think about this after some time and reflection which is I have something now that I didn’t have in 2017 Which is a relationship with my stepson and He is 16 and When I think Let’s not Let’s not finish that thought. But when I consider how old he is and put myself at that age Suddenly the horror but I see in everybody else’s faces that I have never felt myself about what happens in me and metal has never been has never been communicated from me a sort of acknowledgment and awareness that this is not normal and that this is a Horrifying and terrible thing that happens to a small person I never apprehended it like that because I just thought of that 14-year old as me today, right? exactly what I picked up from your from your entities until the last two years and now I’m and now I’m Experiencing getting to know a child. Yeah as a co-parent yes stepmom and Now I get it Okay. Okay. All right. So, you know, I’ve seen this with my clinical clients, you know, who who Failed to notice in some important way that the person they were sometimes decades ago is not the person they are now and the memories they have from those times which are Appropriate to those times are not the same memories that are appropriate to those times now given their relative maturation as we understand and I think it took that That Change in my life circumstances for me to jump me into realizing Exactly what you’re saying? Okay, so let’s so let me ask you some questions about that. So What? what’s What’s changed in the way that you view? What happened to you? And if you were interviewed well And I guess you are being interviewed about this right now if you were being interviewed about what happened to you at age 14 I have two questions or three questions about that What do you think of the propriety of that? How do you now view your role? What do you think about the culpability of the person that that I would say in? Common parlance preyed upon you how is that shifted? In the same way that there is a although it has been ruined by the progressives. We both hate so much a proper place for outrage It is unnecessary and right Human instinct and emotion that has a place there is also perhaps much as it has been ruined by the progressives a proper place for Victimhood when you are in fact actually a victim, right? And I think that now I perhaps realized that I was one when I didn’t know that I was one in 2017. Yeah Well, that’s a hell of a thing for someone in your position taking it, right? It’s rough man. And I and I think that that’s as concise and it’s true. No sir as I can give you Now I look at somebody I care about who is two years older even And the thought of me at that age and someone taking advantage Suddenly I get it. I get it. I’m like I would kill the guy I would walk over there I would shoot him in the head Like I get it now Didn’t get it when I was I Didn’t get it When all I had to go on was my memories of being me at the time. Yeah well what are the things that struck me is so absolutely absurd about what happened to you in the aftermath of that interview was that I thought Okay, this is really and it’s exactly what I would have expected to happen to someone like you because you’re so contradictory Is that is? That you actually had a claim to victim status Which you then refused to capitalize on And then which people refused to bloody well recognized in the midst of the interview like the proper response to that interview should have been something like Well, here’s someone who’s talking about a case of child sexual abuse, but it hasn’t realized or recognized that they were in fact Victimized in that situation and hasn’t come to terms with whatever that might mean and this is not uncommon Among people who have been through these experiences because I have since writing about this. I wrote a little bit about this in An in a short book I read about cope recently and and in other things I’ve the brief mentions I’ve made of it since 2017 a lot of people have written to me with their own accounts and it’s not uncommon I have Not who have experienced this sort of thing, and I guess there’s some point in middle age with a penny trust But yeah, I guess that I guess you know There is there is a right and proper place to acknowledge and understand that you were a victim of something again. I have to Another thing that upset people. I think another thing that Didn’t do many favors, but look, I I am someone who will always Just speak it as I see it and that will have terrible consequences and all have great consequences in there and that calculus will change over the course the next few decades, but I Just It wasn’t the worst thing that ever happened to me and people find that a terrible thing to come out of your mouth, but it just wasn’t it’s not the worst thing that’s ever happened to me and Okay, so I got a couple of comments on that I mean both 20 years ago the American Psychological Association published a famous paper showing that Most people who were sexually abused as children Recovered with very little psychological damage and that caused absolute outrage the US Congress in fact Forced the APA if I remember correctly the american psychological assistance Able Truths, isn’t it? We track they had to retract the article even Imagine sort of trauma that we were expected to recognize That someone says they experienced because of mean words on the Internet and and we have this and we have this economy based on What we all know is not true, but that you know, these trivial frivolous things can cause some kind of actual trauma For an organization like that or for someone in public life to come out and say this huge thing Actually didn’t cause me that much trauma It sort of imperils the whole victimhood economy, doesn’t it? Because if it’s the case that many or even most people who experience this simply don’t have their lives ruined and defined by it that rather imperils the people who have made a career out of squawking victimhood for far far less serious experiences and I think that’s probably where the threat to the system kicked in I Think that’s true. I think it’s also the case that the politicians although also looking for a you know A cheap victory moral victory in some sense. We’re also concerned that this was a potential step towards justifying pedophilia on the basis of Undermining the claims of it’s absolutely catastrophic consequences over Decades, whereas what? I saw it was was more as a testament to the fundamental resilience of human beings It isn’t isn’t that a positive thing. Isn’t that wonderful news that there is there there are these extraordinarily evil people who do depraved things but the Chances are you’ll be all right? You know, then something like this could happen to or could happen to somebody you love or somebody, you know? but that you know what chances are things will be okay now every once in a while somebody is just Blown apart by it and you can never put them back together, but that’s not most people that’s fabulous news but good news is the sort of thing that our current political climate the public square in America, especially hates It’s not so much with It’s a particular kind of reaction to for instance People being people being a Grateful and happy at the capitalism is you know lifting millions of people out of poverty all over the world You wouldn’t like that good news Because much of what goes on in public life Basically the whole journalism industry much of the entertainment industry I mean that the hope the whole of polite society the whole of political politically correct society depends upon Everything being terrible imperil getting worse all the time the sort of shrieking urgent hysteria of the press is Made to look ridiculous when you point out actually the world’s pretty great. Not that people not how many people go hungry Not that much bad stuff happens the bad stuff that does happen We’re discovering all the time that human beings bounce back in ways that you know We’ve never never even imagined the world ain’t that bloody bad? Nobody wants to hear that who has invested in It at least it’s nowhere near as bad as it once was which is something or as bad as bad as it profits the media to suggest that it is is that profits the Academy just suggests that it is, you know it these people these people having Having relinquished their primary phone Whether it is, you know speaking truth to power and you know printing all the news that’s you know, relaying the news is for to print or exploring the human condition human nature and you know building the you know, Expanding that you know that the horizons and the sum total of human knowledge the media and the Academy given up on those missions Instead replace them with an activism that depends on hysteria, but also on urgency on a sort of sort of constant drumbeat This is why you know It’s always something you always something you always something new as soon as something might look like it’s resolved something evermore hysterical and new must be produced This is this I mean this is the natural life cycle isn’t it of rights movements do the gay rights movement? which basically achieves everything it’ll possibly want yet it somehow becomes more hysterical not less and starts focusing on ever more minor and insignificant things like transgender pronouns rather than AIDS you know, and now all of the gay charities are run by lesbians and are preoccupied with Transgender pronouns. You don’t hear anybody talking about the fact that thanks to these posters on New York trams on the subway or whatever they’re called and they and they’re saying um There’s a guy there and he’s called Hernandez or Hernando whatever and his and the poster is saying his levels of HIV Thanks to his medication aren’t just undetectable. They’re not transmittable either Basically, encouraging gay men to have sex with hiv-positive other. Yeah I mean it’s kind of like sick do but this is because conservatives have completely stepped out of that sphere entirely Every time a conservative tries to say something in the gay world Even if it’s with good intentions to help they get killed, so gay so Republicans and even lose all sensible People have simply stepped out of LGBT stuff and they just don’t get involved in it at all So you get this sick crazy like men So with this to this situation where they’re encouraging these reckless unsafe horrendous behaviors and who suffers The most marginalized communities of all is that you know? Is it so so gay black Americans have like a one in two chance of getting HIV, you know? Like that’s that’s crazy And this is you know And this is this is this is what gay charities are not talking about while they are insisting that you know on Diseases and whatever this is this is the life cycle of rights movements when they run out of things to complain about Okay, so let me let me ask you another personal question Before I turn to something that will probably get me even more trouble in more trouble We’ll see. We’ll see how that goes. We’ve subjected me to a therapy session I think you can you can you can even get yourself into trouble as as compensation. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay Well, there should be plenty of trouble emerge from this so well Laura now one of the questions I had again as a consequence of watching that interview was because You portrayed yourself as an equivalent partner in some sense, and I thought look that means that Milo hasn’t updated his memories there’s still the memories of a 14 year old and that that’s a problem and and and And so and you said that that’s something that you’ve actually rectified over the last couple of years and so that’s that’s a very interesting thing to hear about but then I was also convinced that because you were still viewing what had happened to you through the lens of your 14 year old your iconoclastic and rebellious 14 year old self That it was possible likely even although not necessarily the case that you Underestimated the consequence of this interaction on your subsequent life And so now you just told me that you know worse things have happened to you. Yes in 20. Yeah Yeah, you might be right about that because in 2017 That’s what I thought and then in the course of writing the short pope book I just did I asked the question could this have affected the trajectory of my sexuality? Yeah So what in retrospect now now what do you think what do you think it did you I Don’t think it made the difference between me being gay or not. Okay, and why not? Because I think that that was already happening and I think that I was aware of that and that that was very much You know some gay people talk about, you know, being a little bit over into gay or a lot or whatever you know some some gay men can can countenance or imagine having sex with women And first for others, it’s just like yeah, you know in the way that straight men will talk about homosexual encounters now I have had a few encounters with women, but they were very unsatisfying and miserable for both parties and I Think I’m quite I don’t I don’t my hunch is and I can’t provide any evidence with my hunches That this did not make the difference Okay, I think that Like everybody the mixture of nature and nurture in my case was probably swung over in that direction But I like a good male male role models and my relationship with my mother I distinctly remember picking Ethnic minority male sexual partners and Making sure that my mother saw me bring them home or saw me out with them to antagonize her. I distinctly remember picking sexual partners to annoy my mom and that as demented as that sounds and God, that’s a that’s that’s a Chris. I mean like a three-hour conversation. No, I’m look I take trolling very seriously I Just I’m not saying I went to my mom although I have made that joke but I remember an element of sort of Mischief and defiance in there which has always been at the core of my personality. Just this is this reflexive and Unshakable refusal to bow to any kind of authority But not just a thumb my nose at it But to rub that authority’s face in whatever it is of that Authority finds most repugnant, okay? interesting, so first question there would be perhaps What in the world were you so? Irritated or angry at your mother about that that might have been one of your potential reactions. I Have said this in public before so I don’t mind sharing it with you. Can my mother remarried and her new husband was? Occasionally physically and Constantly psychologically abusive, I guess where is the word that we would use now? deep a deeply unpleasant home life in things like so I was a very private kid and I had all of these like papers where I had written out poems and and Constructed these like systems and I just said I just had a very developed in a world, you know and I’ve just lived in the realm of imagination and fantasy and Private space and privacy was very important to me and my mother’s new husband when I was at school would go into my room and Shuffle things around just so that I knew he’d been in there. So I knew that there was no space that was only mine and I knew by extension that I wasn’t welcome there and that I shouldn’t be there and as long as I Was under his roof. I would never be at my own human being and I would never have my own Privacy and therefore autonomy as a human being and I blamed my mother for this I also blamed my mother for not leaving him when he hit me And I blamed my father for not taking me away Although I asked him to and that sort of began a chain reaction of resentment for both of them. Right? It’s okay so most of the major authority figures in your life as parental figures had your experience at that point was of a betrayal of various neg of may Various magnitudes, right? Yes. I did. They didn’t have my back right it from from from proper betrayal all the way down to just Not having my best interests at heart not having my back and and you know all manner of experiences on that spectrum But I didn’t think I ever felt like My mother would go to the wall for me. You know, right? That’s yeah, that’s rough man because one of the things you really want from at least one parent or at least one person in your life is the notion that Fundamentally Man, you got to have someone who start your back so I did get it later I did get it later in my mid to late teens with my grandmother as so many Oddballs, do they end up skipping a generation? And and forming a close bond with a grandparent I did get it from my grandmother and I got the sort of unconditional love and support that I recognized again in the man that I’ve met with So I have had that since in my life and I’m not wanting for it. I don’t like it I’m very happy with the amount of it that I now have but it didn’t I made up for it in some sense Oh for sure. Oh for sure Well, I didn’t but I didn’t have it at the time. Mhm and I do remember really wanting to hurt I remember and I think one of my in addition to my ability to sort of see round corners and Culturally and sort of tell what’s coming next which I’m very good at. I’m also very good I’m very good as sort of intuitively figuring out what makes people tick and what drives them and I quickly identified that social justice warriors were sort of hurting and wanting everyone else to hurt like they were When I when I very very first started doing my speeches Because it was something I had felt myself But only as a child I had grown out of it and clearly they had not grown out of it But I saw in them that same sort of petty vengeful vindictive desire to make the world burn because they were hurting that I had felt myself as a 13 14 15 year old and So I understood them and that’s why I was able and still am able like nobody else to get under their skin because I get what makes them tick in a way that not many other people do because none of the other conservatives who are sort of, you know withering of you know, or Contemptuous of them actually understand where they’re coming from like I do which is why they hate me like they hate nobody else Right. Well because part of the thing that’s so strange about you. Is that by all rights? You should be on their side. I should be one of them. Really I Want to be great, right? That’s their depth. That’s right Logically speaking. That would be your natural resting place And so it is one of the things that well I also thought thought right from the beginning that that was one of the things That put you in in terrible long-term danger of you know, encountering a scandal that would do you in I mean It just seems so improbable to me that you could weather That degree of and now that’s what I mean by the the paradoxical combination that you bring to the situation It’s just it’s too many contradictory things to maintain themselves Regardless of your psychological integration or lack thereof. I mean, I think I’m pretty well adjusted now, but I think perhaps another reason that this career just doesn’t bother me is that I don’t I Don’t work in the same economy that a lot of other people do in the prestige economy You wanted prestige when you asked Cambridge for that fellowship and and you sort of invited that little embarrassment on yourself because you asked for it because although you declared If you didn’t he didn’t but you declared war on a class of institution, you know a higher education to then Ask for or expect or be pleased to receive baubles from institutions that you had declared war on struck me as very odd and Obviously destined for you know a mess that’s an interesting point because Moment of like false optimism. I don’t think it’s false optimism I think it’s I think it’s because you still live in the prestige economy because I think that stuff matters to you and I think that you’d probably prefer to see these institutions fixed and to have a prestigious place within one of them rather than to see them burnt to the ground as so many conservatives and progressives Seem to want they just want to tear up higher education. I don’t think you want that I think you want to fix it, and I think you want to be Generally speaking, you know That fixing things is better than burning them to the ground I think you want to fix them and I think you want to be one of the crown jewels And I think you operate in the prestige economy in a way that I simply don’t and that gives me power because I Don’t care. I don’t you know, that that’s sort of like a scandal from which you will not recover Is there somebody in polite society who will invite me to a dinner party? Who won’t invite me to join a party now who would have in January 2017 No, is there a TV show that will have me on? That won’t have me on now that would have in January and Jennifer’s of you know, I mean, I you know I had a bullet on Bill Maher because of the the college tour But there was no hope in hell no way in hell I was ever gonna get a TV show or anything like that because unlike you I can’t bite my tongue and you know you you I think I see you maneuvering in a way that suggests that you want to do a Lot of good and you’re prepared to make some compromises in order to have a platform for you a lot of good in other places I’m a purist and we differ in that because I can’t bite my tongue and If I’m across the table from somebody who is an odious piece of you know what I’m gonna tell them it’s my greatest asset and my greatest weakness, but it’s because I’m a purist in a way that you’re not and I Just I don’t live in that prestige economy that the rest of you all live in And you all live in it. Well, you know the whole conservative libertarian media ecosystem you all crave Press what do you mean by? What do you mean by the prestige? Position a recognition Titles Being a part of a sort of alternative polite society You don’t want to be excised from the church because if you did you wouldn’t have signed up with CIA you want to be part of the church, and I don’t I See and it’s gonna be very difficult for people who are part of the prestige economy but people who Want the TV show want the fancy agent want this one that were them and they want to like fix and rule these institutions it can be very difficult for those people to truly understand someone like me who genuinely Can’t imagine anything worse I Cannot imagine anything more awful than having to make the sorts of constant Compromises and what I say and do in order to maintain a position because I know it’s doomed anyway, look at Roger Scruton You know did nothing wrong he is beyond reproach he is, you know, he is the foremost conservative intellectual of his generation and They just got him for saying something utterly innocuous in an interview, they’re gonna get you Anyway, nothing bad has happened to you yet, but it’s going to I don’t say that with any pleasure whatsoever I sincerely do not because I feel I’ve been expecting that for a very long period of time Many bad things have happened to me. They just have well not really, I mean in in Compared to what? Some of us have gone through, you know Whether it’s Laura or me or whether or ex Jones or whatever nothing really bad, Oh fair enough Depend on your comparison group. Well, they they are allowing you to grow I’ll tell you what they’re doing with you what they did with me which is you will allow this this phenomenon to blossom Up to the point. You cannot bear it any longer and then you crush it and that is a Horrifying warning to others Not to overstep so they did it with me they let me get as far as Bill Maher and the tour and all the rest of it and then They came through there letting you climb higher So your fall is going to be just like mine was and I’ll get you on something else They’ll guess you want they’ll get you want a complete nothing burger because mine let’s face. It was a nothing burger it was you know that the Supposed scandal was predicated on an edited video which did not show that I said that I thought the age of consent was about right And it was based on it was based on a lie If it had been the case that everybody had seen what I originally said, they might have said Please explain this but it would not had the same effect that it did it had the effect it did because it was a deceptive dishonest misleadingly edited video Because I had created enemies on both left and right the establishment, right and the whole left teamed up to take me out You are walking into the same position so weird. So why do you see that? It was the establishment, right? Do you think that did it? They’re the ones who did it? It was the ring. Well, it was a rating battalion National Review crowd who put that video together and shared it They were the ones who? Manufactured this because they were upset that I didn’t give us stuff about CPAC because it means nothing to me I didn’t even know what it was at the time But they were upset that I was speaking at CPAC because it was it was like their precious Pure conservatism thing had been over by Trump world, right? And so they didn’t care so much about the Bill Maher but the sort of the National Review Reagan in crowd and created and propagated and shared and and and Do whatever with this deceptively edited edited video did so because they couldn’t bear the thought of me being the star turn of CPAC Okay. And so and do you think that that’s why they pushed so hard on the pedophilia front Yes, because they knew it’s the one thing that the conservative base would go. Yeah, yeah And the left didn’t take me out the right did No, well To as well. So what power does the what power does the left have over me? What are they doing to me now that they weren’t doing in January 20th 2017 Nothing. Well, I think I think what I’m not suggesting that I’m correct But my impression was that it had something to do with the second of the two or three topics we were going to discuss which was your claim that the experiences that you had are actually very characteristic of the gay community No No, no, you see interestingly What actually happened about that specific thing is the entire gay liberal establishment when silent? Because what I said was and I wouldn’t phrase this way phrase it this way again because it was it was not quite what I meant and it was Let’s say incautiously phrase to put it. Mildly what I said was the Relationships between older men and young actually said younger men are a common function of gay life and I think I said I’m Afraid I think I said after a lot of drinks on the like a late night livestream. They can be hugely positive experiences I shouldn’t have put it like that I should have said they are a function of gay life And in many cases the city when like a 35 year old man with a 20 year old or whatever Very often at 35 year old will sort of induct the 20 year old Into the gay way of things show them where the clubs are Show them the ropes in lieu of parents because Because the boy’s parents don’t understand him. Maybe don’t even know Or have rejected it or whatever. So very often. There’s this sort of father. There’s an either an avuncular or a paternal Dimension to these relationships on that point and indeed throughout being throughout the whole controversy The gay left went silent and February 21st 2nd and 3rd 2017 Gay journalists were nowhere to be found in America because they did not want to have that discussion because they know it’s true Ok. Well, so is there the consequence of abandoning you by inaction then? No. No. No what I’m saying is that that’s not that What I’m saying is that that’s not what was so unforgivable. That’s not was that that wasn’t that wasn’t the problem ok, so so then well in that case then I guess it’s a matter of Not so much the difference in age, but the difference in wins in win that age difference starts So we’ll say well according so so we’ve had a conversation so far Which is presumed that the contents of what I said was important and that we should dissect it, this is a mistake Because it doesn’t matter what I said. It doesn’t matter whether I was right to say it or what the Nuances or vagaries are of a particular statement that I say is deceptively edited here or whatever doesn’t matter narrative was established and it was repeated by right and left and the person was ejected from you know from Public life and from whatever right? This is what’s going to happen to you This is what’s going to happen to Ben. This was going to happen to Dave Rubin Because nobody stood up for me The PlayBook became established and now that is your fate all of you That’s how you’re all going to go out and it doesn’t matter what you say. It doesn’t matter what the subject was doesn’t matter What the incautious phrase was? I mean Candice Owens it could have could have happened to her recently with her Stupid this her stupid. She tripped over herself saying something about Hitler and and you know There was a sentence that I’m sure she would phrase differently a second time everyone sort of knew what she meant But it could it could if the Stars Had aligned have done to her what happened to me in February 2017. The content doesn’t matter. It was the fact that The left and right decided to take this personnel and any pretext would have done done fine So we’ve had a discussions that are talking about what what was it? You said that was so unacceptable thing It was me it was the fact that The mystery look fair enough, you know I’m not disputing that that there were any number of reasons to make you a target, but I’m curious about why it was that particular interview that did it because cause shouting husband because I was scheduled to be the star speaker at CPAC and The National Review crowd crowd could not handle it so they went through The hours and hours and hours and hours of old livestreams and they found something that would They found something that would get Get to the Republican base Something they could sell to alienate me from Republicans rather than just the left and then they decided this person’s going to go This is a power they still have and it’s a power there. They will leverage against the rest of you to my question is We can talk a little about where I’m gonna go next and what I’m gonna do next Professionally because I think it might help the rest of you when this is inevitably happens to you, but It’s This is a power that I still have it is a power that they can and will Leverage against other people and unfortunately the brightest star and the greatest standard-bearer the you know the court jester of the movement was allowed to be decapitated and because that happened The PlayBook is now established for it to happen to everybody else and it will happen to everybody else It’s already happened to about two other people. You’ve seen it happen since two others, right? Sargon of akkad Exactly, unless lesser lesser. This is now how it’s going to be and it didn’t have to be like that the only way that this boycott and administration Could have been successful would be if Republicans refused to would have been Republican said, okay We weren’t invited to anything on our radio shows He’s too hot to handle Too much drama too much hassle, right What the left does is? Immediately start putting that person on conference stages and panels to get over that period of like, who is this person going to become untouchable? They railroad that they drive a truck through that by immediately getting that person on TV and on conference stages a lot to sort of To you know to drive through that and to make sure that person doesn’t get removed from circulation Right. That’s what the left us when something when Linda Sarsour is discovered to have said something awful Suddenly she’s on conference stages every two days. It seems like you know, she’s feeling all she’s doing this This is not an accident. This is on purpose. This is the left Leaping into action to ensure that she survives right Conservatives did the opposite with me. They allowed the left and the establishment Republicans who hate them To dictate who would and would not be a proper subject for discussion and who should and should not have you know a column and all the rest of it and that’s that was absolutely suicidal Okay, and and the reason that so many other media figures were secretly happy to see it happen to me is that they’re idiots who? Believe that this is a zero-sum game They think that by removing me they create space for themselves. This is not true There is nobody in the conservative or libertarian ecosystem who offers what I do there Isn’t there’s not a single fucking one of you can crack a good joke, you know, no get the odd good blood off onstage On YouTube. Hmm. You have your gifts that’s not one of them Not a single one of you is funny Not a single one of you could have a late night chat show, you know, that’s this cabaret comedy like dry Carson, you know none of you nobody has filled the void left by me because I’m a once-in-a-generation talent and Sorry to be egotistical but it’s just it is what it is Nobody has filled that void which is why I’m not worried about coming back to it and coming out of retirement you know Henry myself, but something did happen to me and that’s that I sort of gave up on conservatives a little bit and so when I do return it’s going to be very much more in the mold of a conventional comedian and that’s What I am Currently closing funding to do as we speak down to, Oklahoma Much more in the vein of an entertainment figure and much much less at the politics So the effect it might be a relief for you Well, not really because I quite enjoyed it, but the effect of this hasn’t been to kill me the effects of the cowardice of other conservative media figures and the conservative base Their failure to stick up for me and for every twenty seventeen If the effect wasn’t to kill me the effect was to lose one of their greatest and most effective champions Because I’m fine I’m doing good. Okay, so let’s talk about that being fine. So I want to go back to I still have a question about the Older man, younger man relationship issue. Can we talk about something else? Well, For humor me for two more minutes because there’s actually something I want to go with this. Okay. So the the first issue is Where is the line property drawn in those relationships as as far as you’re concerned with regards to age? And where and where is it usually drawn to socially now you’re trying to get me now you’re trying to get me in trouble I’m not I’m really not I don’t want to get you in trouble I and I don’t think there is a line to properly be drawn because you’re basically just talking about a talking Degrees of degeneracy at that point, aren’t you? You know the fact that you get saddled with this aberrant sexual morality And you don’t have to go out and make the best of it the fact that you find this paternal or avuncular Dimension in a in a relationship with an older man that may also have a sexual component I mean this is layer upon layer upon layer of dysfunction So you’re not going to get me to say ten years is the right gap because none of it’s the right gap It’s all fucked up Alternative I Don’t mean partly partly hydro selfish conversion therapy week marriage I wish conversion therapy worked at least said that before you’ve least in the case of lesbians We know that we can Push women back into to back back with men and most of them will be happier as a result with men on the other hand Some of us are just gay and I’m not going to be drawn on what the correct kind of fucked-up dysfunction I wasn’t trying to corner you, you know well, I don’t want to corner you this is something I’m really curious about because You made the case and you made a strong case that relationships between younger men and older men were very common in the gay community And now see what’s not me making the case. That’s an established fact I mean every gay person knows that that’s gonna things with me that’s just me pointing out something that every gay person knows which is that when people when people first become Sexually active or aware of their sexual orientation or they first start to go out on the scene or whatever They very often form an attachment with an older man It may just be somebody five years older in some cases is somebody a little bit older than that? How that’s happening at the age that it happened to you Happens all the time, I think happens everywhere. And I think it’s I think it’s an inevitable result of having a an Aberrant sexuality where you have to seek out kind of alternative print alternative Parental figures because yours aren’t fit for purpose for this particular part of adolescence You know, right but then you just said to that this isn’t an objection that you don’t see a clear Ethical pathway forward out of that. No, none of its ethical. I mean it’s all debased and degenerate What do you mean by that exactly Because I think there’s an element of predator earnest in almost every gay Interaction and relationship and this is just one example where it is more obvious and more visible, but I think that um There is a predatory component in Even gave me even in gay friendships you think about the way that some well that might have something to do with the more Arguably with a more predatory Element of male sexuality, right right and you talk about on discussable things, right? Will you take the controlling calming? Mediating influence of women out of the equation and men to just pipe each other up which is why they why gay gay men end Up repress curse right because you’re taking out that some Restraint, right exactly restraints to look at we’re losing talk you’re taking out restraint. That’s typically provided by the woman Instead you can just you know That was supposed to be solved at least in part by the introduction of like socially sanctioned monogamous relationships right because I’ve had friends I knew about heightened male promiscuity among the homosexual community and it’s hyped by Substantial margin and the liberal types who I thought were reasonable and I certainly don’t think all of them are Made to claim to me that the reason for that enhanced promiscuity. Was that all the male? homosexual sexual activity had to Occur behind the scenes and that it was impossible for for men’s ever dance that’s a ridiculous argument male male homosexual promiscuity is Obviously simply a function of what happens when you put two men together attracted to or another and you don’t have the restraint of a woman It’s obvious and and also you cannot Successfully box a transgressive sexual identity into Where we say hetero patriarchal institutions like marriage and expect gay people to just suddenly become you know Normal, monogamous whatever doesn’t work like that. Well, okay, that’s fine. So, but it seemed to me that in some sense That well Here’s something else that is Going to cause trouble it seemed to me that that was kind of part of the bargain Like wasn’t that the bargain that I was so that was part of the deal is that you know in change for having this millstone around your neck in exchange for the in exchange for the terrible agony of giving up fatherhood which you know, you can adopt and blah blah blah, but ultimately You know, basically it’s like joining the priesthood, you know, you give up fatherhood In exchange you get to participate in a sort of taboo breaking transgressive experimental life That performs perhaps some kind of societal function might even perform an evolutionary function And which you have the excitement of the marginal Exactly. And and and that’s that’s why I mean i’m I am the world’s greatest hypocrite on one subject on one subject only and that’s gay marriage And that’s because I don’t have the foggiest idea what I think still even though I’ve got one I’m under no illusions that it is a union under under the Lord but I am I remain politically against gay marriage just by the fact that I got one because I’ve met somebody who Completed me and I couldn’t think of anything else to do. But of course I would marry him So I’m very um, I’m a mess on that subject No claim to Coherent logical positions on that one subject that one subject. I’m a mess. But the reason I always Was so skeptical of gay marriage is that it was it was robbing us of the one thing that we had the one good cool thing about being gay that you had in exchange for the awful horror of not being able to produce a child with the person you love in the ordinary course of sexual congress When you realize that and I don’t think a lot of gay people realize that ever But I realized it quite early when you realize that you the bottom of your world drops out and you have to do something else you have to find a purpose and if your purpose Isn’t going to be fatherhood This is why so many gay men join the priesthood because they want to be a different kind of father You know they want they want to be to be a shepherd you Have to find some other kind of purpose and very well for gay men that’s creativity experimentation you licensed that were given by the rest of society because we We don’t have this other thing. Um Trying to cram Again, I’m a complete hypocrite on this subject because I live in total married bliss. I live in I live in beautiful Monogamous domestic harmony, so I’m a 100% hypocrite on this subject. But it just or it still feels to me a shame so to sort of condemn, you know our Experimenters, you know the people who are so over-represented in artists and musicians and and even politicians and warlords You know, it’s it’s a sort of condemn them to the same the same monotonous drudgery that you breeders have to have to submit to Yes. Well, I can imagine that it’s sort of it’s it’s sort of grates against your What would you call it your your? Anti-authoritarian my rebellious spirit and all the rest of it. Yeah. Yeah Poetic justice in some sense. Yeah. Yeah this is this is one of the many things that convinces me that God is real because there’s no there’s no that there’s There’s a humor in that which could only have come from someone doing it You know what give you something that’s just gonna make just gonna remind you that you don’t know it all and you and it’s going to Confound you for the rest of your life and remind you that you too are messy and complicated And on this one subject you are never going to be coherent illogical. Good luck with that No, don’t another terrible question for you, so I I read Martel’s book on the Catholic Church about homosexuality in the Vatican. It’s very Contentious book let’s say written by a gay man who claims that Homosexuality is Extraordinarily common in Nevada it is and so and that the kinds of relationships that you describe between older men and younger men are Common in that culture as they’re calling in the rest of the culture Yes, they’re so I’ve booked on this subject too, and I can tell you for a fact that both of those things are true There’s it’s called the lavender. Mafia in the Baskin it is the the for those those viewers who don’t know it is a cabal of Not just gay bishops, but specifically progressive left-wing gay bishops Yes And and my book was a little bit more Politically focused than his my book was drawing attention to the fact that the same people who want to water down the liturgy who want? It for you know Divorcee is to be able to receive Communion and want you know gay people to do whatever They’re the same people who’ve been covering up child abuse in the church and and it seems that The same people have been doing the child abuse and covering it up are also the people who are most aggressively pushing for progressive reform Of the Catholic liturgy and of Catholic practice and this of course Resonates with what we know from other industries, doesn’t it? It’s just like Hollywood just like the press just like the Academy the people who are most aggressively pushing for Progressive free-for-all sexual liberation other people with the ugliest and most depraved skeletons in the closet. The rest of us are quite normal so My butt was more about that, but I can tell you that It’s absolutely true the mistake that the Catholic Church has made And I remain a Catholic despite the terrible state of the Catholic Church Yes, and all the other contradictions in your life You know that They’ve never bothered me. They’ve never scared me and I’m not afraid of that I’m quite excited by that because I look forward to a day when I might grow either get closer to a resolution or be happy with you know with not finding one doesn’t I mean You know I can I could imagine I can imagine ben shapiro would be kept awake at night by this but i’m not you know, because I don’t need Everything in my world to form into a perfect, you know it’s like some sort of like Kantian or the contingent superstructure where everything has its right place and you know and everything is Perfectly organized all the dependent things are in the right That’s not what human beings are. Like that’s not what we are We’re much much more complex and messy than that, and I’m very much looking forward to 40 50 years of exploring my own ludicrous, you know But The the I remain remain Catholic But the the issue that the church has had the mistake that the church has made is turning a blind eye As the church would put it to sin turning a blind eye to Rampant gay sex in a vocation that is supposed to be celibate supposed to be chaste And we associate that Hypothetically will the way that you would Martel’s claim with the proclivity to cover up the child sexual abuse because of it Which is his most radical claim I would say I don’t know if he’s wrong about that. What I would say is The way that the way the church would put it is you know If you make room for one sin, others will follow right? so what what that means in practical terms for the Catholic Church is Because the priesthood is somewhere where lots of gay men go and the blind-eye is routinely turned to their sexual peccadilloes Even if it’s just with each other and there’s nothing non-consensual or abusive going on because it’s a sexual free-for-all because it’s the kind of place where Supposedly transgressive or forbidden things happen routinely with no consequence Then it becomes an institution that attracts other kinds of people who have other things to hide like pedophiles Where where are you going to go if you have? some kind of Psychiatric dysfunction or whatever it is like that. You’re going to go somewhere that routinely overlooks or ignores sexual Wrongdoing course you are that’s what the church that’s what that’s what Christians mean when they say, you know You let one sin and others will follow they don’t just mean in the sense of personal behavior Like if you let yourself do one thing you let yourself to others, but it also works in institutions, too and Of course The lefties will say the reason that all of these problems happen The Catholic Church is that priests are required to be celibate. The opposite is true They haven’t been celibate for a very long time and that’s what’s created the problem because there’s now an entrenched left wing gay mafia, that effectively runs the like church That has engaged in the systematic cover-up of child abuse. So as to protect its own power and that’s about as bad as it gets, you know in terms of you know, A global institutions who have lost their way that is as it gets I want a black Pope because I want I want there to be a Doctrinally conservative because they’re all that all of the the Catholics in Africa are like pre-vatican – they’re serious Catholics And it will make it it will make life very difficult for progressives Accusing a black Pope from Africa of being a racist in a sexist, you know because he actually wants Catholic doctrine to remain Catholic doctrine, but the present Pope is Basically, he is not himself a homosexual as far as we know but he does sit at the head of this lavender mafia and he is propped up by people like Call McMurphy O’Connor from England and Wales, Vincent Nichols and all these other aging 60 70 year old liberal Cardinals who are products of the 60s, who are soft on communism and What my book was trying to show was that The soft on communism thing is entwined with the abuse with the wrongdoing with everything. They’re the same people doing everything so Theodore McCarrick who has the distinction of being the world’s only ex Cardinal because Francis had to remove his His Cardinal C from him Had to degrade him as the technical term he was Francis’s envoy to China and he was the one who put the deal together with Francis to allow the Chinese state to participate in the choice in choosing Catholic Bishops But this hasn’t happened since like Gregory the 7th The Catholic Church has been ferocious about choosing its own bishops, but they handed selection of the bishops over to the Communist Party in China Knowing the Catholic server routinely persecuted, you know and killed in China Because they never met a socialist they didn’t like and it’s that but it’s that particular sixty seventy year old child of the sixties aging hippie liberal That lives in another planet from the rest of us and is still all thinking, you know, if only they sorry the lawnmower, Oklahoma If only if only socialism were tried one more time, perhaps perhaps it would be okay this time That’s the world these people live in and they also know it’s in your book. Hope It’s it’s yet notice. It’s called diabolical how Pope Francis betrayed clerical abuse victims like me and why he has to go It’s called diabolical. So yeah, but anyway, I talked about that in books But no It’s very interesting how the same people who are far leftists who are pushing for church doctrine to be watered down which has the effect of emptying the pews because when people go to church They want the fire and brimstone. They go to be told what to do. They want the Bible. They want Jesus it won’t commit change Right, they don’t you know They don’t want they don’t want a bishop talking to them and I’m not making this up. There are seminaries now where the Where the seminarians are starting to issue? They’re starting to give sermons on toxic masculinity, this is a church that has no no manly men left in it Yeah, every man in that church is a homo You know There are no men left in the congregation’s there are no Heterosexual men left in the clergy and this is the church that thinks it has a too many men problem. You know, who? This is a church that the reason that this subject interested me in addition to my faith is that this is another arena in which the loss of Manliness and masculinity and the loss of a proper appreciation of the heroic masculine virtues has led to chaos and disaster because No True father by which I mean the sorts of fatherhood the the priests are supposed to Give up having children in order to embark upon, you know, no spiritual leader With integrity would stand by and watch children being abused and cover it up This is something that gay people do because they think what they do is wrong so they’re happy to cover for somebody else is doing something wrong to a Father a real father doesn’t sit idly by while children are being abused He takes you know, he takes steps to stop it and he punishes the people who have done wrong That’s the righteous indignation and outrage of a true father and those and that appreciation of you know Like it’s it’s right and proper to hate people and we should be outraged about though When you said that’s part of what you’ve learned over the last couple of years Right and but that heroic manly virtue is something that has been sort of Systematically wiped out the Catholic Church just like it’s been wiped out of other Places in public life. Yeah journalism And it’s yeah assaults that everybody knows about in all those different arenas So it was interesting to me watching the book finding that most of the problems most of the things that are happening in the Catholic Church most of the problems that church has got itself into Basically boiled down to there being no men it’s all women and gays and that the vast majority of the child abuse scandal and all the other things that are wrong with the Catholic Church our product of The church losing its connection to masculinity and simply having no men left in it. Well good. Well good There’s nothing controversy about any of that. So that’s quite a relief so We don’t have to be impaired Okay, so I want to return to something if you don’t mind I want you to tell me What you think the consequences of what happened to you when you were 14 might’ve been okay? I don’t know. Yes, I Mean I look if you’re not like I’m not I’m not Unwilling to discuss it with you. Yeah, I’m not having a problem being forthcoming. Yeah, I just don’t know I know the only thing that I’ve really thought about is whether or not it might have affected the trajectory of my sexuality and I think that it may well have done but I don’t think it on its own was enough to make difference. I think I’m probably right about that also talked about just in this conversation about Transgressive me of That that sexuality and now you Participated in that even it’s let’s say as an active participant and the question is what did that do to you? What what did that what did the note do to you because you had to live with it. I Don’t know if it’s a fair question. I don’t know if I’m crazy. No, no your phrasing it fun I just don’t know the answer to it In the same way that I don’t think anybody can know What quote unquote made them gay? You know as everybody has is born with I think everybody was born with a more or less of a predilection Whether or not you believe in epigenetics or whatever Some people do some people don’t but I think everybody probably has a sort of predisposition And coupled with early experiences you end up by they’re mostly having sex with men or not, right? I Don’t think that we’re ever Conscious of the processes acting on us at the time and therefore it’s very difficult It’s just pure speculation based on whatever we happen to remember trying to work out what it was that made the difference and I don’t think it’s I don’t think it’s something that could ever Satisfactorily be answered because simply because we’re just not aware of the process is acting on us. I don’t know if My dad not saving me from you know, that household made me You know sort of to made some kind of misfire a rewired like, you know, I said something haywire in my brain I don’t know whether I resent it and just you know, just like my mother so much they went off all women I don’t know and I don’t think there’s ever any way to know and for the same reason I don’t think there’s any way that I could possibly answer and I don’t think there’s anything anybody could be on blind speculation and I think that most people who are Most people who try to explain I’m so sorry Most people who try to explain or abuse might have done to somebody In almost every case. I see their political prejudices and their biases at work, you know out there in search of Justification ring isn’t the truth is I have no I have no goddamn idea and neither. Does anybody else? No one can possibly have a clue because these things are acting below the conscious level on us in a way that we cannot Dissect and analyze. Okay. Okay. All right. So let me let me ask you then. Let me switch topics So, you know you’ve been less in the public eye since this Scam quiet. I’ve been retired. You’ve been retired. Okay Look I saw a quarter of a million books. I made millions of dollars I have more nice stuff than I know what to do with I have a Husband I am deeply in love with I could die. Happy tomorrow. I helped to get a president office I’m one of the seven people who put Trump in office and that’s not eager to zoom. That’s a fact, right? I’m one of the seven people to put Donald Trump in office I can die happy now as you know, you might be do in purgatory for you as a Consequence after I die for that particular crime, who knows but But the fact is like I have accomplished more than the vast majority of people walking this earth I have you know, and if I were to do nothing else professionally now I would be infinitely more successful and all of my critics combined. Okay, so I’m good Rumors of your current state there’s rumors that you’re terribly embedded. There’s there’s rumors Okay, so I sometimes you know one of the problems with trying to find out what’s true about me is I like to troll journalists and I Confirm or deny according to my whimsy So when somebody writes to me saying is it true? You’re 2 million and down say no darling is 4 million what I work what I won’t go to the trouble of explaining is that of my many companies the one that was funded by the Mercer’s who withdrew their political investments from Steve Bannon and from me at the same time that particular vehicle is somewhat in debt but I’m not I Don’t I don’t have any personal liability whatsoever? The sum total of the money I owe It’s about nine hundred and seventy seven dollars to capital one because I can’t get any better credit cards in there because this country belong enough So so the core problem Have as much money as I had two years ago I don’t but I’m not two million in debt. One of my companies is And will probably have to either Try to fight it will have to fight its way out of that or it will have to you know Go through some kind of insolvency process or whatever, but I am NOT in debt I just never bothered to correct the record and frankly when a journalist if you journalist wrote to me so rudely noise if a journalist wrote to me and said are you 2 million dare and I made the very Important critical distinction between me and the business. Yes. They wouldn’t write that up. Anyway, that’s there They would take my confirmation of the figure as confirmation that I’m in debt and just write what they wanted to anyway so I feel no I mean it’s not a crime to lie to journalists and I feel no obligation to to act as their fact-checking It’s actually a crime to tell the truth to Journalists is a men a men know if somebody comes looted like a crime often if somebody comes to me to ask for comment I think it’s a moral obligation Which is why I got myself into trouble that time before, you know when someone shot up the the newsroom, wherever that wherever it was because I I Made some flippant comment about vigilante death squads and journalists or something and I didn’t post it publicly I wasn’t like inciting people to hurt journalists. I wrote it To somebody who then published it and wrote a story about it and then they use that as evidence that I was cheating I’m like, whatever This is the these are some of the consequences of being the kind of person who So my job is to create a career in which that doesn’t matter because I’m not Because my success my income my fan base my profile whatever isn’t relying on The prestige economy, but it’s also not reliant on this sort of rules of journalistic propriety or whatever. So this is why I’m in Reason, I’m in Oklahoma is I’m closing the last tranche of money to do a late-night chat show like Johnny codes This is the thing. I alluded to earlier in the conversation I see I see. So that’s part of your future plans and hillie work Who are you doing that with if you don’t mind me asking? Are you still in the process of waiting to announce that I’m still have announced anything yet? So I’m going to the money in the bank first and I’ll do all my hires and then I’ll you know announce partners all the rest of it, but the thief the basic the idea of it is well, I should always have been doing which is Somewhere between Bill Maher and and Johnny Carson. I can do my characters I can do my Ellen Omar my doctor Christine kind of characters as cold opens, I guess and Al except they’ll actually be funny I can do monologues. I can do interviews all the rest of it and I’m a live act I’m not one of these people that could just babble for three hours a day like, you know Some of the podcasters can do some of the youtubers can do I just find it So boring, you know, I don’t want to just babble three hours I don’t know wants to hear the same opinions from the same for conservatives or used every day Mind-numbing ly though that’s not me. I’m a writer and a live act right? That’s where I live. That’s my happy place. So It’ll just be once a week. And so how are you going to how are you going to protect yourself? just out of curiosity about being From being censored and taken out like because I’m going to make it laughs. I’m absolutely anti fragile We’re not gonna be on social media. We are going to encourage. He was not to share clips We’re going to beg people not to put us on social media We’re going to host the video on our own player on our own website If you want to watch it, put your email address in and what we can sell into the email list, right so we can do Newsletters without theirs and all the rest of it. I’m going on so it’s something like próxima meaning a private subscription service Yes, it isn’t completely dissimilar from Alex Jones’s model. Just without the homegrown forums, right? Well, that’s what we’re hoping to allow people to do with this platform that we’ve been building as an alternative to patreon you know on on a broader scale, or maybe I’ll be on that because I feel happy because It’s the only thing I’m not banned from perhaps I think these Hermetically sealed little universes are the future for us. Look social media isn’t for isn’t for us The people who run these companies hate us they are dedicated to our annihilation They want to see us wiped off the face of the planet there is no point handing distribution over people who hate and Why would you drive up the market value of these companies by providing them free content? She’s silly and I’m always the person who has to do it two years before everybody else So this is where I’m gonna do you just just leave social media. I’m gonna spend a bunch of money Converting my Facebook fans into a big powerful email list, and I’m just gonna leave there will be life after social media Trust me once one up So once upon a time people didn’t imagine that there would be no that myspace wouldn’t still be here There was a world geo cities where the world moves on and in five years no one will have a twitter account anymore and you’ll be Worrying, you’ll be wondering why on earth you were you were panicking about and the people who didn’t look ahead will be lost I will have a three million strong email list that I write to every day with, you know a hilarious Daily column and they’ll tune in on Friday nights to watch my show and I’ll be perfectly happy. Nobody can take that away from me You know if we email providers I’ve kind of pretty much sort of semi told people already so the cat’s kind of sort of out the bag, so I haven’t really broken the news now, but but Once the money’s in the bank, then I’ll say then it’ll be six to eight weeks before we have a set built So two months before we drop I’m gonna have a very open Gestation process. I’m going to show pictures of the set where it’s being built all the rest of it We’re not going to do like grand announcements because I’ve done enough flows in my career. So we’ll just have a very iterative Period of putting every person handling everything and then in about two months, I will draw episode one and it will be The funniest most hilarious unmissable hour of television that somehow not on TV Produced by anybody in the country and it will be unmissable and hysterical It will teach you something because I’ll have a serious component to whether it’s a mini documentary or an interview or a review of something And it’ll be bookended by just the funniest political satire and you know and earn and and characters and nonsense but that nobody can do but me and It’s sort of what I always should have done it’s what I’ve always wanted to do And now I have the breathing space if you like one no one’s looking while no was expecting Daily this there the other for me I’m in my room You know in my first retirement period well chair I will come out for a time and many times in my life This is some I’ve had this nice space where no one’s been kind of down my neck to deliberate Have you enjoyed that like is there being anything about? Advantages to you about the fact that you’ve been sort of pulled away from the public spotlight. It’s been it’s been wonderful I’ve been able to I’ve been able to dedicate two years of my life to getting to know the man I’m going to spend the rest of my life with you know, and now we can go about Now, I’ll throw myself back into the fight He’s got his own career all the rest of it But we’ve had something that most married couples don’t get which is two years just together But the beginning of our life together, most people don’t have that luxury or anything even close to it They immediately get bogged down in the everyday hell of you know, who’s taking the kids to school Did you pay the gas bill crap? Right? We didn’t have any we just had two years Lists together and now we have an unshakable foundation And if I’m away for six months I’m away for six months and they won’t Make a difference to us because we don’t have the same set of vulnerabilities that a lot of newlywed couples do Because we had that that time together. So from to my mind it was time well spent I’ve also been reading a lot and we didn’t get to talk about anything really substantive in this conversation, except my Obscure psychiatric history, but you will see you will see that I’ve been reading a lot and sharpening my claws and Refilling my tool kit and so when I do start We entering the arena and popping up on live streams and doing interviews and things like that you’ll see that I’ve spent two years reading everything I can get my hands on and I’m Considerably more formidable than I was two years ago. I was already quite formidable anything we particularly recommend Not at the moment. I’m gonna keep my powder dry because I have I have lots of fun things that I want to that I want to do with it all but know I’ve I’ve been regrouping and plotting and Sharp. Oh, I can’t imagine that a sharpening a sharpening my knives you don’t you know? You don’t want to be the first one in front of my blades no, it’s it’s People keep expecting to be sad or to have had some kind of terrible experience in the truth is I just happened I’ve had the best two years of my life I’ve been I’ve been in perfect bliss with the best man I’ve ever met and now I’m ready to go back to work All right, well look that sounds like a good place to end We could do this again and talk about something substantive instead of instead of my dreadful history yeah, well, you know you’re an interesting character and so It was substantive as far as I was concerned and I think people will find it that too so doing it happened to you was very Singular and but it’s unexpected. It’s important that people realize that The specifics of what was said or neither here nor there It was the fact that the the powers that be linked up and decided defenestrate this person and because Conservatives allowed it to happen They lost one of their greatest champions and I’m going to be very successful with very profitable enterprises and perfectly happy just being funny for a living because I Sort of think to myself why would I keep killing myself for people on why would I keep killing myself for people who don’t deserve me so So some degree the politics stuff. It’s never gonna be gone, but it is gonna be dialed down considerably I’m gonna be talking about love sex death and money instead of you know Trump or whatever and well, maybe you spent you know, maybe you spent enough time talking about politics. It’s not very interesting After a while and the people who are in politics are awful I mean if those of us who are kind of moving into that political sphere and have you know Aspirations toward being elected officials the rest of it they’d be there becoming awful people. I mean everyone in politics is is Dreadful ghastly. I don’t think I want to spend 30 years talking about or thinking about those people anymore So yeah, I’m gonna I mean not to say that there won’t be characters from the political or pop it up in my catches, but or indeed that I want to Of course, I’m going to do journalism. I just want necessarily be a political journalism per se So perhaps I’ll do a 20 minute mini documentary in the show where I’ll go out into The country somewhere or I’ll go to Sweden or I’ll go to London or whatever but um, but as far as this sort of you know, The conservative movement stuff goes the conservative base are cowards and they are ungrateful and they are indolent and I gave a lot and Paid my dues and helped get a president office And now it’s time to do what I want to do Which is make people laugh because that’s that’s the power that I have that nobody else in our world does So I’m gonna focus on that. Yeah. It’s a hell of a power I think he makes heterosexual men a certain kind of heterosexual man. Laughs I Like the I like the guy but I I don’t personally find him, you know rib-tickling ly funny but then that’s because I like people like Joan Rivers and You know that kind of universe so So he’s maybe not my kind of comedian and he could it be um, but anyway this has been fun So thanks me. Look. I’ve been looking forward to talking to you for a long time. Oh Say hi to Vaux for me. I will I will he’s very much looking forward to to me speaking to – This is he that’s what I wanted – well We’ll just talk about things like the forward because it’s interesting substantive things to do that you’ve managed I know this was your strength of the conversation Well, we will are you this for your strategy through this conversation? Which is not lost on me was to make sure that we don’t spend too much time talking about you and you have been successful In that strategy because I’ve allowed you to but the next conversation we will talk about you because I do want to talk about The forward and I do want to talk about some of the things that you know the thing that I asked you about on Australian TV and whatever because I think that um, well, turnabout is fair play as they say right and I need no I did apologize to you unless it and I’m and I’m and I did make a mistake at the and I guess oh gee and thank you for that no III, I think there’s Important substance to be spoken about you know as regards Well important things God and yeah there’s what else so let’s talk about let’s talk about real things next time well I think we’ll think when I when I’m feeling particularly Up to a battle I think about and I’m sure a lot of people will watch this so this is officially the last time I will ever speak about bloody February 2017 So if anybody wants to know anything can watch this video and that’s it. Good. All right good Well best of luck with you new endeavor That’s about to you ticket. All right

  1. Strangely it’s been one of the saddest things I’ve ever watched.
    After watching it when Dr. Peterson’s face faded to black in the last second, I was in tears for 5 minutes.
    I haven’t had same tragedies in my 30 years of life as he has. But I saw my old self in Milo.
    I am not like this anymore and truly wish one day he will genuinely be in peace too.

  2. I have missted Milo so much! And my God the brain on him! He never showed it like this before. Well I knew he wasn't stupid. But he is on the lvl with Petersson. A younger version at least haha.

  3. Milo was taken out of the public light by the Clintons, the only reason they didn't suicide him is that he's gay.
    Furthermore… Oh wait there's someone at the door.

  4. Jordan is a clinical psychologist, yet he doesn't broach the subject that seems so obvious: gay men are generally men with father/mother issues. It's a psychological disorder.

  5. I look forward to seeing your new venue. I'm part of the Trump movement and I appreciate what you added to the movement. I love that you would leave social media. Let us know where you are landing. Not all the base is awful; some of us are quite OK.

  6. Milo tries to analyse JP, but fails because he is so wrapped up in himself. His addiction to communicating his own thoughts and inability to listen without interrupting makes him unable to understand other people. This is annoying but he is still worth listening to.

  7. What disturbs me about this, is that when Milo is asked what being abused by an older Priest might have ‘done to him’, the only dimension he seems capable of viewing this from is whether it made him gay or not.

    It makes me wonder why? Particularly when he claims he now understands the event differently, picturing his similarly aged stepson in the same position. Based upon what he’s saying later, though, the main effect of his stepson being targeted by a paedophile is that it might contribute to making him gay, but probably not.

    I find it very interesting. Is this a case of denial? Is he so committed to taking a provocative position of abuse being ‘not that bad’ that he can’t explore the potential consequences of abuse, even when the victim is himself? For me, I noted his referral to ‘power’ troughout the interview. He said he likes to look for where power is. He also says his power is that he doesn’t care about anything (or claims not to care). It occurs to me that perhaps the way he dealt with his experiences of betrayal by parents and authority figures, including the abuse, was to create a false sense of power by showing that nobody can do anything that could hurt him, because nothing they do could ever matter to him. He appears to have created an identity based on this early survival mechanism – his entire career is based upon proving he ‘doesnt care’. He can’t explore the possibility that abuse might have had any negative effect, as that would imply that he cares, and that would be losing power (in his mind). It would not only mean exploring that he might be a victim (something he would find detestable, as the ‘victims’ are those he so much loves to mock), but he would be contradicting a fundamental aspect of his core identity.

    If you ask me, seeing how he speaks about this issue, and knowing how he turned out to manifest himself in the world…… that event (and his unsupportive parents) didn’t just do something to him, it did everything to him

  8. Milo is right. He is a national treasure that is sorely missed. He is also right about the conservatives being cowardly and ungrateful. It’s not only their loss, but ours as well. I wish Milo all the success, because he deserves it. We love you Milo, come back to us soon, we love and miss you!

  9. Yes, all of the religious priests, I mean all religions have that problem of pedophiles, I was one, at 12 years old for 2 years by 3 of them.
    But I fill just like Milo, it wasn't that bad because I didn't know any better, and it didn't change my life.

  10. Laughing at the insanity of this world helps to keep it from consuming you.
    The universe is full of contrary things.

  11. Milo is delluded if if thinks he is not under the prestige economy. His league just allows his style. In the YouTube age no person that wants to be heared by the public gets shutdown completly. There are many platforms than can do the trick. Also personal websites are having a slow but sure comeback.

  12. It’s like older men with their younger wives. Hugh Hefner is the perfect example. It just in Gay communities. It’s everywhere.

  13. Being from SE Texas these type people are pretty much alien, I find them both intriguing/refreshing, I also respect/appreciate the amount of courage they have to do what they do and to shine while doing it. These last few months I’ve been somewhat researching their work and I feel Americans should pay attention, these men are from other countries yet they recognize what’s at stake here. Them Focusing on the US and its values Says a lot about how great our country is folks. Thank you Dr Peterson and Milo for fighting the good fight!

  14. I just love Milo! I think it would be great if u contacted Beckett Cook.(He was also interviewed by Eric McTaxis) You would find it very interesting!!

  15. I don't think that Milo has effectively dealt with the horrible situations that happened to him. His mechanism for his pain, in my opinion, is being on the offense and "he doesn't care" is a wall of protection from his pain. I'm glad that Dr. Peterson is trying to get to the core. Forgiveness will help start to set a person free. Milo said "he's fine" but he's not.

  16. Isn't this how a pedophile picks a child? Bad home life, divorced parents, mother remarries a man who doesn't want him around, a father who wouldn't remove him from an abusive environment…and a pedophile who pretends to care and stand behind them.

  17. Some of those who took him out WERE on the Left. They're looked at as the right, but behind the scenes, they're pushing a Democratic nominee into 2020. I think perhaps Milo was hoodwinked…bc they are NOT on the right. They criticize the right constantly, but like Milo, lots think they were on the right.

  18. Na! Sorry I don’t get him/ this interview! I was physically and emotionally abused by my mother, apparently from 3months old. That WAS the worst thing that has ever happened to me!
    Not solely because of the abuse but the knock on effect on my future life (I’m now 57) and the choices I’ve made! Destroyed by the primary caregiver! I’m not done with living yet but I consider this to be the catalyst for my wrong paths. Thanks to JBP now live my life free from unearned guilt and “addition by subtraction “! I am a survivor, not a victim!

  19. I hope Milo mentions Bishop Viganò, other bishops and the brave Catholic laity who aren't meek about the sex scandals. This discussion gives outsiders an impression that we Catholics are cowards and weak. Peoppe should watch Michael Voris and his team in CHURCH MILITANT, a channel that discusses things from Catholic liturgy, apologetics, tradition to sex offending priests.

  20. "That's why gay men become preists because they want to be fathers and shepherds." Why that opened my eyes to some things.

  21. This was lovely to hear between two favorites. Thank you for sharing with us Milo! Thank You Mr. Peterson for having and sharing the conversation I've waited to hear with us!! I will be waiting for your show Milo!

  22. You’ve lost your laugh, Milo, and that was all you really had. YOUR transition has been from Court Jester to insufferable boor.

  23. All the people I've met who were subject to pedophilia were completely marked by the experience. Sure they get on with their lives, afterall we have no choice and for many it does define them.

  24. The reason candace owens didnt get taken down by the hitler comment was because she didn't apologize for it. Milo apologized, he admitted he said something he shouldn't have said.

  25. I'd disagree with Milo, Jordan Peterson is very funny, he has the timing of a stand-up comedian. I laugh more when watching Peterson than when watching Milo.

  26. I am so glad that Jordan is involved here to get to the bottom of too many people's wrong and VERY unfair response to Milo's situation.

  27. One of the fundamental differences between these two; despite opposing opinions etc, JP tries to bring harmony between individuals whereas Milo tries to bring disharmony. JP's intention is to encourage meaningful action out of love whereas Milo is playing the game of power.

  28. Milo the English Puffs was got a black boyfriend but he never talks about white genocide in South African Jordan Peterson does he ever talk about white genocide I notice 2.2 million viewers on your platform this is September 10th 2019 harvesting organs in America Andis puffs who wants to come to America but he's got a criminal record I don't think he's able to come to America flamboyant gay gay rights but not White's getting a rights now and then is going to be taken over by the black communist and Muslims but then again if Boris Johnson can pull off the brexit get rid of it they might have a chance better really doubtful Peter Johnson Jordan Peterson hasn't talked about white genocide in South Africa white people making money off white people's misery

  29. It is upsetting that Milo has been labeled as a hate speech speaker and has seen his voice cut through various online sources like twitter and facebook. Free Speech is truly being infringed upon when we look to private entities like Facebook and Twitter to decide what is PC or not PC, and what should be labeled as hate speech and removed for such reasons. This is not free speech. Does Milo not have his own active website or podcast?

  30. Fascinating! Thank you for this intervieiw, Jordan. I don't know much about Milo, other than what I've "heard." He clears up or at the very least, provides me perspectives on Gay Men, the Catholic Church, and human behavior that I hadn't known. Your questions were deep and probing, for which I'm also grateful. You poked just enough and Milo was courageous and honest enough to answer to the best of his ability. I will never view him in quite the same way.

  31. I love how both men are so respectful, open and willing to look at each others points of view. The world is all the better for having them in it, shining their lights on all the bullshit.

  32. Left Right is deception. Liberal and conservative labels attempt identify biases all humans suffer. Most are blind or dead spiritually. Individuals who think and speak in an effort to learn and grow a better world is what this helps achieve. Hallelujah!!!

  33. Any alt righter or even just pro american in general (especially if white or latino who wants the real america back, not the corporation) who supports ann coulter milo or gavin are idiots. All three of these idiots are pro blacks and j3ws. Gavin has admitted on multiple occasions that he doesn't understand anything about economics or politics. Down with these fake patriots (which 2 out of the 3 aren't even americans) .

  34. Does Milo know who Steven Crowder is? I like Milo but he's not quite as unique as he thinks he is. Crowder is far funnier.

  35. Milo, this has been one of best insights on behavior and being real that I have heard. You have found your greater purpose. Thank you to you both.

  36. Milo feels betrayed. Throw verbal hand grenades at him all day long and he'll bat them away without thinking, but the way he was abandoned by his "side" is what really cuts him. The world needs more people like Milo and I personally wish him the very best.

  37. Was an interesting conversation. I don't agree with him where he predicts Peterson's downfall though. He sort of says it just because it happened to him so it will happen to everyone, not much evidence for it though. Peterson has had life changing impact on at least thousands of people around the world and he has a lot more people who would back him up if he was attacked by the public sphere for something he says.

  38. It is dissasociation … This happens especially when someone is under extreme trauma as a child or a baby… Which is clearly what happened with Milo… Hollywood actually looks out for people who are able to do this easily… Dissociation

  39. I see death all around me sometimes, in our animals, in nature, in my mom, in my mom n law.. In people who are sick.. In poverty all around us…hidden by big banks, federal reserve… I have been training my brain to try to "dissosociate" myself from the trauma in my life. But, I see that doing nothing for my character… Nothing for the "meaning" we are all searching for… In other words the world is sad… Life as beautiful as it is… Comes to the same sad demise… And it is this that I cannot get over…There must be more to us than to witness these horrific things..

  40. PC and Identity Politics ruins societies on purpose! Are the Globalist elites to blame for they’re snobbery and double standard?

  41. I don’t think Milo is an oddball he’s an extremely gifted individual and his feelings and self recognition as being human is greatly enhanced! !

  42. Jordan is to good for Higher Education, he’s genuine and genius in his field and is mature enough to understand difficult positions.

  43. But Milo, YOU and the others SHOULD stick together and fight back! Forgot about YOUR hurt feelings and others too, and BAND TOGETHER to FIGHT! I’m a Republican and I still thought you were awesome! This is very sad!

  44. Great conversation although I do find that Milo is quite interuptive in these one on ones. I feel that if he was a little more patient the conversation would be even greater.

  45. That’s right Milo just leave Twitter traitors!!! Good luck too Milo I’ll be watching! ❤️👍🏼🙏🏼🤞🏼👏🏼

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