Independent Women’s Forum and The Young Turks Debate Capitalism vs. Socialism



good morning everyone and welcome to bowl TV I'm David graça from gen biz and nonprofit dedicated to helping Millennials and of course Gen Z understand money and entrepreneurship and today's guest host is none other than a friend of bold and documentary filmmaker Alicia O'Neil how you doing I'm great thanks so much for having me as always it's always great having you Alesi anyway this episode is brought to you by independent women's forum a nonprofit dedicated to developing and advancing policies that jar me just well-intended but actually enhance people's freedom choices and opportunities and as always we have a great show for you today so make sure to leave your questions and comments on Facebook and Twitter we pay attention to all of those so let's get right to our first segment joining us in the studio is Kelsey Bullard emma biggle and Kelsey is a fellow at independent women's forum and senior writer at the Heritage Foundation and emma is a correspondent with the young turks welcome to you both ladies how you doing today thanks for having us yes thanks for having me thanks for being with us senator Bernie Sanders showed up to a Walmart shareholders meeting on Wednesday to attacked what he called and I quote starvation wages Kelsey what was your response when you saw this well is anyone who is really working at Walmart actually starving I would guess no they are making livable wages it is totally fine to put public pressure on Walmart to increase their wages if we think we can do that but there's a big difference between having the private sector do that versus the public sector problem with what Bernie Sanders is advocating for us he's advocating for across-the-board minimum wage some companies would be able to absorb that other companies and small businesses absolutely would not and also we have to look at this issue state-by-state if you know I my husband is from Iowa for example I spent a lot of time there you do not need to be making $16 an hour to have a good life there versus we're here in New York City today I think you might need a little more to survive so I think the overall policy that Bernie Sanders is pushing by using Walmart as an example is hugely problematic it is well intended but it absolutely would harm Americans actually end up reducing ours which reduces overall wages there have been studies after studies one in Seattle one in California when they implemented these types of minimum wages and it showed they were not beneficial to everyday workers so Emma let's talk to you what do you think a huge corporation like Walmart what type of responsibility do they have do they have the responsibility to pay higher wages so Bernie Sanders has been incredibly effective in pushing and using public pressure to do this he introduced the stock Bezos Act in the Senate which never you know went to the floor at all but it pressure Jeff Bezos into raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour for his workers and I think Amazon is doing pretty okay he also did the same thing with Disney and their employees and now he's attempting to do the same thing with Walmart which is the largest private employer in the world in the country excuse me and they are facing he's facing a lot of pushback in that area they're basically saying well we're going to wait until the government forces our hand and that's the reality for most corporations now if you see look at the minimum wage the most conservative studies show that if we were to keep up with inflation it would be at least 1160 an hour and that goes across the board in different states throughout the entire country so it's not just New York City we're in in 2020 the $15 minimum wage is going to take effect it's throughout the country so I I believe that his work with unions and organizing power there is really important and the fact that Walmart is pushing back so vociferously goes to show that because they are the richest family in the country for a reason and it's because they've largely received little regulation by the government and they've allowed to trample on their workers many of whom are reliant on food stamps and when you're working full time you should not have to rely on government handouts and lastly I would also add that when what we saw in Seattle is that when you raise the wage those workers actually put that money back into the economy when the wealth is hoarded at the top and by executives and through stock buybacks that money is not going back into the economy it's not being purchased and there's not this huge turnover that's why I think wage increases would not only be good for workers but would be good for the entire economy I'll see before we move on please respond well in the case of Seattle you saw the minimum wage resulted you know if a restaurant faced a new minimum wage workers are working less hours so so they might be getting paid a little more but overall their income dropped somewhere around 125 dollars a month I believe because of the change and the cost is also passed on to consumers restaurants are able to absorb this and so when you're eating out at a restaurant if you're one of those low income workers who works at Walmart and wants to have a night out you're no longer going to be able to afford it because these costs are passed on to you so what what do you say you are a conservative and you don't believe in food stamps and government handouts the government is subsidizing the cost of these lower wages one way or another through said handouts why not just increase the wage so that people don't have to be starving through those government programs and instead of just basically having it fall on the taxpayers so that's a good question and we have to realize a lot of the Walmart workers not all of them but a lot of them are low-skilled low skilled workers so if they didn't have a job at Walmart they would need to be a hundred percent subsidized by the federal government instead of that they are only partially subsidized so absolutely I'm all for Walmart increasing minimum wage but the federal government does not need to do that and in forcing them to do that could actually result in less jobs which means we'll have to you know these workers will be laid off and we'll have to subsidize more and more percentages of their overall well-being so you're saying that basically the other only alternative is that they would be without a job and that can basically do whatever they want we want with them wage wise and so they should be lucky to be working a starvation wage nobody is working to starvation wage at Walmart right now but but ultimately right now what we're seeing are some of the lowest unemployment rates this country has ever seen and that is because the federal that is that is because the federal government has taken a step back they have deregulated the economy and that has empowered workers this is the most important thing and something we haven't talked about I would say in the media landscape enough that when workers employed when employers have to compete for workers that gives workers power to demand higher wages that is why we have seen Walmart slowly increasing its minimum wage that's why we have seen Amazon increasing their minimum wage because because of the good economy they are now having to compete for their employees ok wait wait we have so many topics to cover I'm sorry to interrupt yeah this is great yes of course a little bit more later but going back to going to the 2020 race so we have a lot of politicians that are not a lot well we have politicians that are supporting socialism most notably senator Bernie Sanders and we also have some that are pushing back against that saying that John Delaney and Hickenlooper for example they're saying that the Democrats need to move more to the center and that it's important to preserve capitalism how do you Emma where do you stand on this so I mean I'll gently push back against the framing right so Bernie Sanders is pushing for democratic socialism as our ever is every candidate even on the Republican side in a certain form right so we back 200 years ago decided that we needed to privatize the firefighter system because having private fire fight firefighters didn't make sense that the house was burning we couldn't have that discrepancy that needed to be a public service Bernie Sanders other progressives have decided health care should also be a public service as it is in Sweden Norway Great Britain France Germany countries that are doing phenomenally Canada right up north we are the largest and most wealthy country in the in the in the world we should be providing health care for our citizens and we shouldn't have tens of thousands of people dying every year because they don't have access to health care so the I would just push back against the premise of the question because we all live in a mixed economy the progressives are just trying to push for one aspect of the economy that's basically become kind of rampant and overrun the health care industry to be now basically national so Kelsey you know Hickenlooper says and these moderates in the Democratic field say hey I'm running to save the only system that supports a vibrant middle class and of course that's capitalism what is referring to you do you think that's right I'm very skeptical that any Democrat is really standing up for capitalism because of the pressure they're facing from the far left and candidates like Bernie Sanders who have done performed far better than I think any of us expected thus far I would give you credit there my question for well first off I actually I don't think there are many if any moderates left in the Democrat primary right now we just saw Joe Biden come out and basically endorse a version of the green new deal which would cause Americans energy prices to absolutely skyrocket and add 1.7 trillion dollars to the economy by reversing the Trump tax cuts which have clearly done so much for the everyday employee and the workers that we were just talking about he also just flip-flopped on the Hyde Amendment he's now saying that he wants taxpayers some of those who genuinely do cannot imagine using their own money to pay for someone's abortion he now wants to force them to do that so that is not a moderate position and I don't think any candidates in the field really are able to stake their ground there because of the pressure from the far left so what about the religious objections to war should taxpayers still fund war you what were you talking about six so there are many conscientious objectors and conservatives at the time during the Vietnam War said well you still have to serve in many ways what about taxpayers now if they object on the religious basis to war should we still be funding the you know the war is the highest military budget in the entire world I think defending our democracy is a very and our very right to have this conversation over whether our taxpayer dollars should be forced to be used for abortion is a very different question from the abortion question we're here to talk about capitalism versus socialism though and elysia is a burning question about populism I was so she Kelsey was talking about Democrats moving to the far left right and and apparently Joe Biden now is not considered a moderate which I would respectfully disagree and I think you would as well but do you think that there are a number of Democrats not only Republicans that believe that Democrats moving to the left and embracing a more of a democratic socialist agenda will alienate voters so I would I think that's a good question but I would say that actually when you look poll by poll around 80% of Americans support green the green New Deal which is basically an infusion of new jobs into the economy catching up to what Germany has already done where they're 80 90 % renewable energy and they're one of the most thriving economies in the entire world moving away from an old fossil fuel industry that's dying because the u.s. subsidizes the fossil fuel industry we talk about socialism this is welfare for corporations that are dying and we're giving them money to basically pollute our country the green New Deal would infuse new jobs subsidize them and create a sustainable economy that would move towards the future as opposed towards the past so I don't I believe that the green New Deal is a very popular position that's true medicare for all single-payer poles between 60 and 70 percent as well so I actually think that these are deeply popular ideas and there's this old paradigm that were way too focused on that there's the left and the right and the center the actual center independence our populist they want policies that will effect them on a day to day basis there there they want college for all they want Medicare for all they want to not worry about their kids and I think that's why you see Bernie Sanders appealing and polling so well in the Midwest and why Trump did so well there their populist at their core except one is an actually legitimate person and the other one is a complete fraud stirrer who was a reality show host so Kelsey you know a lot of the stuff she's saying though about not subsidizing things those are conservative ideas aren't they actually letting the free-market prevail especially when it comes to fossil fuel and subsidies towards industries that are dying absolutely but you're asking to go from one end of the spectrum to the other and subsidize I am because I'm not a conservative but I think that's an inconsistency right that we are you in favor of fossil fuel subsidies ok American support concepts and it plans like the green New Deal like Medicare for all like government funded paternity leave until they find out that they're going to have to pay for it we know that taxing the rich will not pay for all these programs that you're asking for taxing the risk rich will pay for about 6 percent of the of the progressive plans that socialists and Democrats are calling for I happened so how will you pay for it I would love to know so just the Trump's proposed military budget increase for the Osio would pay for college for all for a year 60 billion dollars and that's a I think she's trying to ask when you wouldn't you tabulate all of these you've only mentioned one program if you put the total bill for all these programs goes far beyond what the government takes in so are you suggesting we have to dramatically raise taxes on everyone I am suggesting that we have to raise taxes to subsidize these programs on mostly the rich yes but just Elizabeth Warren's wealth tax 1% on every dollar made about 50 million dollars and to 2% on every dollar made above a billion for these households would pay for universal child care it's not that hard we could slash our military budget which has dramatically increased every single year despite the fact that we're not technically at active war we could pay for all of these things it is completely possible in the wealthiest country in world we just have a corrupt campaign finance system that has allowed corporate interest to entirely take over the conversation and they are and the wealthy as well and they are incentivized to say that that's not going to can't be a real I can i intervene I'm just interested in getting back to the question that David originally asked and that Emma did as well on whether this idea of of subsidizing these dying industry make sense and whether that's even a conservative principle well I appreciate your honesty I find it very refreshing for the fact that yes it is going to cause an increase in taxes to pay for all these programs because a lot of Democrats try to say it's only going to be taxing the rich that's it we're gonna wash our hands and we're done with it of course conservatives do not support subsidizing these plans we support free-market policies and that is what is working right now I am absolutely against crony capitalism the Heritage Foundation my employer has done a lot of work in that regard so no I don't want to be subsidizing you know terrorists for example our attacks on the American people that's that's another example of something that I don't support but we just we need to have an honest conversation with Americans when it comes to the proposals that we're hearing from Democrat socialist which I still struggle to understand what Democrats socialists are because I know you'll say it is not Venezuela conservatives will point to Venezuela and so you know that's a bad example of it okay so your point so you point to these examples but the but but Denmark has the 14th freest economy in the world that they are they are a capitalist country the Prime Minister has pushed back on Bernie Sanders when he has gone out and I also have health care for all so they do so so if you make 37 thousand dollars or more in Denmark you will be taxed over 50% of your income and then on top of that you will face the 20% value-added tax that is like the European version of our sales tax so we we are used to maybe a 6% sales tax for everything we purchase in many European Democrat socialist countries if you want to call it that I I don't agree with that because they are free markets they're free markets with big social welfare programs they are paying the everyday middle class and lower class taxpayers are paying a lot of money for that program and the programs are highly problematic just this week a new prime minister was elected in Denmark and she is described as having very anti-immigrant policies why would that be because Danish people need to protect their ability to provide these big social welfare systems if we want to be a country that does welcome immigrants when they come in the right way we cannot be having all these handouts all these programs unless you want to pay over somewhere between 50 and 70 percent of your income in taxes if you make over $37,000 and 20 percent sales tax on every good you buy which would hurt Americans middle lower and upper class I mean I think that would be shocking for everyone to pay that much in taxes I'll see you you brought up an interesting question that I that I'd like Emma to answer she said she does not know what democratic socialism is and I think there is the semantics right that it's democratic socialism where Bernie Sanders just a social democrat right how do you define it that in the wealthiest country in the world no person should be too poor to have basic necessities it's how I would define democratic socialism and how it would look in the United States I am someone who's you know maybe this is controversial for my audience I'm more on the elizabeth warren side i would not define myself as a socialist i would say i'm a capitalist but i really truly believe in in subsidizing social programs so that everyone can have the same leg up that people in the top 1% do and that means having access to health care not being not now i'm using the the neoliberal term but having healthcare as a right being able to not have to worry about being crushed by medical bills if you have an an illness or something like that access to tuition free college ins in public universities which is actually not a very expensive proposed excuse how much are you willing to pay for it in your taxes in your income in mine I mean I don't want to reveal my entire entire income but I would 100% support and increase in my taxes to subsidize to what what percent I don't know whatever it would cost yeah that makes one of us because I'm not willing so anyway let's talk about some numbers from the Heritage Foundation your employer of course they say extreme poverty globally is down to 10% this is a huge decline over time what do you think this is why is this happening it is because of free markets it is because of the success of capitalist economies and I think this is why so many of us on the conservative side can't help but take these conversations surrounding socials and versus capitalism kind of personal because we have spent time to study the effects of socialism on people and we we know how it has resulted in millions and millions of deaths around the country we genuinely care about lifting people out of poverty and there are studies after studies that show the there's nothing better than the free market to do this poverty is at an all-time historic low not just in the United States in the worldwide right now and we have our capitalist system free-market economy to thank for that but then how do you just you know explain the complete discrepancy in income inequality so say wages right now if they were to have kept up with with corporate hand or excuse me Wall Street bonuses we'd be making thirty three dollars an hour at the minimum why do you care what people at the top are making as long as people at the bottom are not living in extreme poverty where we are lifting the whole boat that's not true it's extreme poverty has is is has been erased in the United States I think that that's a view that's not informed by oh talking to people on the ground where they are in Flint Michigan they don't have clean water where you talk to people who are working three minimum-wage jobs just so they can keep a two bedroom apartment with their three children I think that that is a reality that actually informed Donald Trump's election where they wanted to throw a brick through the window of the establishment and Bernie Sanders's rise as well neoliberalism free-market capitalism has caused the rise of these far-right movements and of these populist democratic socialist movements for people who are looking for an alternative so I think that it's not looking at the entire whole when we're talking about the fact that as a whole yes there has been more wealth infused into the world but there are a lot of people that are left at the bottom and the income inequality is as bad as it's ever been Kelcey going back to some numbers again from the Heritage Foundation they also reported that the average global economic freedom score as of 2019 is sixty point eight now can you explain that for those of us that that don't understand what that means the Heritage Foundation every year publishes this great product it's my favorite product that they publish called the index of economic freedom and it ranks how free different countries are based on their economies the first time I looked at this I was so surprised to learn the United States was in the teens since then under the Trump administration we have improved the United States is now at number 12 but yes Denmark so Denmark is at 14 Sweden is at 19 Finland is at 20 in the United States again is at 12 we we had been further behind in the past but you know I think looking at this what looking at this index would surprise a lot of people and it's very user friendly you don't have to be you know a policy walk to understand it it just lists it and you can click on each country and learn how is it died and how is economic freedom to find in this index define based on the regulations based on property rights in different countries your ability to keep what you make and you know have actual property and then it also looks at the the laws in the country and whether that is those laws are business friendly so it is it is it is a statistical analysis of the status of economic freedom in different countries it's a product that is cited in all different types of me landscape it's not just a conservative product it really is a reliable source and you can learn a lot just by spending a few times looking at it then how do you reconcile your criticisms of these social programs with the fact that these countries like Finland Sweden and Denmark are scoring fairly high on this scale so you have to look at each country individually and you know take some time to learn about its history to find out how it got there Denmark for example has a history of I believe being an oil-rich country by the way Norway [Laughter] they also have homogenous populations there for a while they didn't have a lot of immigrants but recently I am just so interested to watch the fallout in Denmark right now where there is a lot of pushback in regards to the refugees coming over from Syria and so forth these are countries that are cited by people like yourself as these socialist utopias but they are not being friendly to refugees or immigrants right now they they are trying to pass a law the Democrat socialists are trying to pass a law that would ban face mass Muslim Muslim garb they are also targeting ghettos this is what they actually call them ghettos which is where a lot of these minorities and refugees and immigrants live so these countries are facing a lot of problems in terms of the immigration crisis and that is stemming from them wanting to protect their socialist welfare system which is not easy look I'm not I'm not saying that we need to be exactly like one or the other I think we can learn from from from all of these instances I'm not proud of the fact that Europe and some of these countries have had this kind of racist I would say blowback towards these immigrants that have come through but I think that you know when we talk about homogeneous populations we can take these smaller models and see how they would apply state-by-state but with a national kind of force behind it so when we're saying that it's just these small little countries I don't see how it can't be applied on the national and you're you're bringing up a very conservative idea which is you states as living laboratories for minimum wage we have tried this out in Seattle we have tried this out in California and it has not yielded things it has not the studies have not yielded it depends with Seattle because I've also looked into this and a number of depends what study you look at as well right but naturally because we always study study study and the question is what study but what you are what you are seeing is I think based on what I read in Seattle is that the more people are earning and the more they're they're putting money in their pockets the more people are going out the more people are going to restaurants and a number of these restaurants that have raised the minimum wage now they tell people not to tip so you know it is offset in that way but what Kelsey what tell she's referring to as the Seattle study that many liberals were disappointed in which showed that it reduced overall employment so maybe perhaps both are true it creates a system of winners and losers is the problem so if it reduces employment but raises wages for those who get to keep their jobs because they reduce hours so anyway we have to wrap this up but we want to talk about the big burning question that everyone wants to know about so GDP growth has been pretty good since Donald Trump got elected to point to two percent two point eight six percent annualized right does this mean president Trump's pro-business policies are working and furthermore does that mean he's gonna get reelected so Emma you push so how do we define pro-business that means you're cutting taxes your for corporations allowing more loopholes you're giving them basically free reign to do what they want increasing stock buybacks which artificially inflates the economy and only helps shareholders and then also not doing anything about wages so I think that the way that we look at the economy is way too based on stock earnings and how the stock market is performing when only 85 to 90 percent of or excuse me when only I think 40 to 50 percent of Americans actually own anything in the stock market and the top ten no one's 85 to 90% so is he gonna get reelected the burning question of everybody's still seeing this booming economy there's a record at low unemployment in all of these things and we had a similar argument made for Obama who I think took away two middle ground approach when he was yeah he thought he could work with the Republicans but it was obvious that he could never do so and when you're a party that's wholly funded by corporations they're gonna do what they want and I think that President Trump is in for a rude awakening because when you have all of these pundits sitting up here saying oh the economy's doing so well and people actually aren't feeling it on the ground especially in Michigan in in Pennsylvania in Wisconsin yeah it's gonna be a rough ride for him come 2020 if he continues to go down that path and and unless the Democrats if the Democrats nominee the centrist like Joe Biden who says everything's fine it's not fine for most people so Kelsey so first pro-business policies tell us list a few of them because they the Heritage Foundation has gotten their wish list through the through Congress through the administration can you name a few of them absolutely he has deregulated across the board the tax cut and Jobs Act yes it helped corporations but it also hugely helped everyday Americans across the board unemployment is at historic lows and again what we need to talk about is how unemployment empowers workers and this is so important in Ames Iowa for example there is a 1.7 unemployment rate right now there are help wanted signs everywhere they cannot find enough workers when you're in that situation where employers are competing for employees that gives the workers power to negotiate for what they want and this is why I am NOT for a one-size-fits-all government approach because me as a woman when I'm going to look for a job I might value a company that has a good maternity leave plan because maybe I'm planning a family in my future versus my husband might not value that as much he might take the higher income where I'm willing to make some sacrifices and so we needed a me that works for individuals not everyone we want to make it customizable and that's my biggest fear coming from Democrats and Democrats socialism is that they want this one-size-fits-all solution government telling individuals we know what's best for you rather than believin in individuals and believing that they know what's best for themselves so is president Trump gonna get reelected that's the burning question mo responded to perform the way it has I don't want to make any predictions but I'm very confident in President Trump right now you know and I think the two big the two big issues that are going to be you know on the ticket on voters Minds in 2020 are the economy and immigration you know Democrats and Republicans have very different views on immigration there is a crisis I hope we all agree on that despite the different solutions there is a crisis right now that we have to deal with and we have to do something to answer that in 2020 hopefully will get us there because the smart Congress is being nothing but a roadblock and it's very sad is it's a humanitarian crisis as well how do we wrap this up nicely over the bow please speak them thirteen-year all-time high so president Trump's pretty much a disastrous failure at a signature issue but I wouldn't agree that it's a massive crisis when Obama was president we had a net zero migration coming so you're not worried about the families and children and the conditions they're being held in and Congress not giving them enough resources to deal with this crisis that's something that we all should agree with despite I mean this is this is these are the issues that will frame the election you know this whole idea of socialism versus capitalism what to do about immigration because there's a lot of people caught in the crossfire too you have the dreamers who the Congress refuses to act on and then you have these my you know asylum laws that are clearly not made for the modern world so we have to figure out a solution to get us to the same place and I think you both I want to congratulate you both because this has been civil and respect and I think you both care about this country as does Alesi and myself but we can all talk about this civilly despite having our great differences you hate America I am like mr. USA over here but yeah no I think it's great that we all care so much that we're willing to put ourselves out there and have these important discussions and it's rare to see you know two people that are that are able to talk about this and this way usually people are talking at each other and you both talk to each other so I think that's cool by enormous ly constructive ladies Emma and Kelsie thank you so much and that's it for today's show we want to thank you all for joining us today on facebook and periscope and of course don't forget to like bold TV on all the social stuff you know Twitter Instagram you can also find us on the Amazon fire stick so put that fire stick in download bold TV and watch us on your big screen we're in the big game so aren't ya yeah so don't forget to join us back here next week for another episode of this bold TV as well as my own show Bowl business and we'll be here waiting for you




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