How Personal is your data_Surveillance Capitalism and Democracy in 21st Century



those on the side of the room please settle down Isabelle Verona can you guys settle down juice after Ubisoft we ready to begin our next panel on surveillance capitalism this panel is called how personal is your data we have with us miss Kathleen burka from the Mozilla Foundation a frame Percy Canyon Ito from article 19 Shaun Kanak with the National Institute of Strategic Studies and mr. Ford mahi with the ministry of justice in Morocco dr. Sammy Suren will be chairing sarin over to you Thank You bata can I request you all to settle down and I hope I can be heard in the room I'm going to be a little loud so that I can get your attention there are many conversations happening here and I want this to be the only conversation in the room now for the next one hour thank you I am delighted to welcome my panelists this morning who will be discussing how personal is your data surveillance capitalism democracy and politics in the 21st century I have changed the title right now because I don't only want it to be about democracy I wanted to be about how political regimes are under threat across the world irrespective of their nature and I think let's broaden the debate and bring all countries in irrespective of their own form of regimes now I'll be joined by my panelists on the right is Kathleen Berger global engagement lead with Mozilla she was on the dark side until a few years ago she worked for the German government we have next to her Sean Connick director of cyberspace and future conflict International Institute of Strategic Studies he was in doing a good job until a few years back he was with the intelligence community in the u.s. next to him we have Ephraim Percy can donítö the digital program officer article 19 in Eastern Africa who is determined to change the data conversations on this continent and finally we have pod mui who is great joined us from morocco he's a director of human resources in the ministry of justice he will be speaking in french so those who will require translation you have three hour translators with you we are it's a trilingual conference english spanish please choose your language and a preference is available on your devices we are not going to be here we are not going to have lengthy presentations we are going to have a discussion format let me start with Sean Connick and let me be upfront I would like their debates in this conference to be direct Frank sometimes passionate sometimes very brutal but always kind and gentle so ask the tough questions but do so kindly and nicely so Sean let me ask you the questions the United States has shown over the last three to four years that the state itself manipulates and scavenges for data and uses it for perverse purposes recently it has shown that its companies and corporations also prey on people's data and use it for different purposes so coming from the country which has seen both the state and the private sector manipulate personal data and in fact invade personal freedoms are you of the opinion that there is no personal data anymore and privacy is dead well thank you Sameera first let me also thank our Moroccan hosts and sci-fi for inviting me to participate and I think you've tackled a lot in that very first question but let me do my best certainly surveillance and data collection by both government entities and private sector companies is a huge issue and especially from the US perspective and experience to start I'd like to make one distinction between the collection of data and the manipulation of data you use the word manipulate and that is an extreme concern but it is actually yet another concern beyond collection itself and it's something I hope we talk about further together but on the pure surveillance side we have seen our government collecting specific content of communications in regard to subjects of interest in a number of capacities and we've seen collection of metadata this bulk collection too detect patterns to help identify issues on the private sector we've seen companies the big search engines the large social media companies collecting huge droves of data through very permissive user agreements and we've seen breaches of that trust recently Facebook and elsewhere the real question I think that you got to have what does this mean for privacy and when I think about it especially for this audience let me say what it's not I don't think it's about government being Big Brother I think it's private sector driven because even when government wants your information they're often relying on private sector technologies secondly I don't think it's just about your government or your country or companies in your country increasingly individuals and interests from Africa Middle East India are realizing in Europe as well are realizing they're dealing with companies that are outside their own jurisdiction so how do they grapple with this Irish issue third it's not necessarily the primary interest of the users themselves I see individuals freely giving this data to companies in return for applications and functionality and last possibly most problematic in a world of big data as we go to the Internet of Things I sincerely don't think it's possible what do I not think is possible anymore keeping secrets for any lengthy period of time simply look at governments and national security organizations they can't even keep their secrets private large companies and banks can't keep their data private without occasional breaches so I return to the issue of what does privacy mean today and we already mentioned the youth of our nations in the opening statements I question if the coming generations desire privacy the way people of my age or older did in the past and if they are willing to forego functionality to have privacy I'm going to answer that last question is I don't think they are which means perhaps the surveillance concern approach is framing the question the wrong way I'll stop there and I look forward to hearing comments mothers and delving in this deeper but for me I think the era of secrecy and privacy is almost a 20th century conversation I am tempted to jump and jump to Kathleen right away and ask her this question other youth today not interested in privacy and is this a 20th century notion is it just all people talking about something that is alien now personal space privacy data integrity what do you have to say to Shawn's social giving me the chance to reply immediately because I would actually I was sitting here like no no no no no I very much disagree with that this is definitely not dead and I'm like I mean I'm German I'm European there and I work for Mozilla there multiple reasons of why I would disagree with that I think that privacy is is not just something that happens in the data economy it's much broader than that and it's this area this space in ourselves where we are truly free and we lose our agency as individuals if we don't have a space where we can just be ourselves unmonitored and that is broader than just being in the digital society there are a lot of interferences and a lot of threats to our right to privacy but it is for a reason protected by the UN declaration and human rights and by other international treaties because it is so important and I disagree on another level which is as a European come May 25th the general data protection regulation is going to come into force and I actually think that that is going to be a game changer and a historic moment because it's going to challenge the collected all culture that many tech companies have these days and especially when you say that most data collection interference in privacy is coming from the private sector given that there's a four percent fine range for global turnovers for companies that is quite significant and finally I think that data protection is getting teased with that and the third reason working for Mozilla a not-for-profit we were at the same year as Google and there are a lot of people who say you can't be innovative unless you are proud of the data economy and collect all the data possible because you might just as well use it in the future you never know that's what innovation takes these days Mozilla has been very privacy protecting from the beginning and for us gdpr is actually just a natural development of practices that we've developed over 20 years we're still around and we are an Internet company so I would largely and usually challenge that there is no way to a collect only data that you really need to use service and make them convenient and useful to your users and still make sure that they have choice because that's ultimately what here is it yes it's natural to post yes it's natural to share and that's perfectly okay but the point is you need to choose so if I take a hundred selfie just to select one that I might want to person Instagram I actually don't have an Instagram account but talking like theoretically then it's my choice which one I choose and it's not for somebody else to decide that it needs to be public that I've actually taken a hundred to find the one that I like or I might choose not to share my first ten minutes my first morning coffee or the ten minutes that I stay extra and that the point is I need that choice and that shouldn't be undermined Kathleen let me ask you another question so there are two you know there are two conversations that take place around EU and innovation and data the first is that if an idea comes out of Europe it is generally a bad idea if you want to have a sensible robust digital economy the data protection policies of Europe is not the path to follow if you want access growth and economic potential to be truly realized we might tend to lean towards the u.s. model that's one school of thought the second school of thought is that this is the false binary that privacy and growth are both possible and we are unnecessarily creating this schism which does not necessarily hold true if you look at certain other models but the European experience around creating these unicorns and and the big digital companies is quite poor now how would you respond to these two sets of conversations that seek to describe Europe or other European approach to schools definitely exist I think it's pretty clear that I have more in the second school thought I don't think that piracy is an obstacle to innovation in fact I actually believe there's there's one thing with the Silicon Valley approach to benefits fast faster faster you just consider certain things later that yes Europe is slower but maybe also a little more sustainable because how do I put that um I'm just trying to to remember reflect on how to best say that so it's it's you know you can either cater to short-term profit and everyone is happy of course if you make money we all need to make money some way but you can import suit for short-term benefits for yourself or you can think in the long term of what actually benefits everyone because even if you profit in the short term you're still also a consumer and a citizen and so are your family and your friends and people closely around you so just generating something that is valuable for yourself is probably not the long-term goal and I think right now in the current age and you mentioned that early and you mentioned that also that we are seeing a lot of distrust in a lot of desolation with her the digital economy has developed and I think that it is this enlike how do we actually gain that trust again because otherwise we will see people just disconnecting or giving up and actually engaging with innovation and not believing it anymore means that we have to think in the long term sustainable benefit for everyone and I believe that if you had develop practices that are rights protecting by design it's the right thing to do and once we have we also help raise awareness consumers and citizens that they do have certain rights that there are alternatives that they have options that do have choices and tell them what the choices are the rest will not follow naturally because they will also demand more ethically and responsibly designed products and services okay so that sounds a bit like socialism to me but but nevertheless it's it's it's its idea there percy let me come to you sean i'm going to come back to you because i think you will have a lot to answer for you have a lot to answer for but but but but i'm going to come back to you percy you know you've been engaged in this conversation in east africa you've been working in a organization that seeks to bring data protection as a central feature of african union's approach to the digital sector and it seems to me that you are caught between two models as well of course there is a large part of the african conversation which is manipulated and funded by the european union and the money that flows from there and they want you to adopt their approaches they come in have capacity-building workshops they have models and partnerships and then the second one you have a chinese hardwiring the african continent you have the Chinese telecom Chinese infrastructure that comes in builds their systems give their mobile operating systems on your Android phones and that is a very different conversation around privacy and and data control various Africa placed in this conversation and where is certainly your organization and your own Network placed on this okay my name is Ephraim canítö that title is no title that's my boss's title I am the program officer in charge of digital rights so don't I have not replaced my boss for those who know my boss yes so about what is the African position what is what do Africans want we did our research two years ago at article 19 just give a background at co19 we stem our mandate from the article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights we've existed for the last thirty years across the world we have presence in 11 countries working on freedom of expression and freedom of information so at Eastern Africa office we did a research two years ago working with women journalists and we found that 77% of some of those women that we worked with felt that their privacy had been infringed and then out of that 77 percent around 60% of out of that 77 percent with jus or felt that they will be drove from using online to offline once their privacy was infringed so uses themselves for example you're a woman journalist you're covering stories and then these people are infringing on your privacy because of the stories that you're covering maybe political stories anti-corruption work and and that infirmed or has informed some of the positions that we have right now so it's not we're not US or Europe or China kind of focus it's what they uses one because there are various researches which have been done over the last several years and they users themselves feel that the one privacy especially young people is this research that was done five years ago by Pew Center which focused on young people the youth which part of the young people and the the young people felt that they we wanted the choice going back to what Kathleen was mentioned that you need that choice you need that you know that choice of whether to have your data taken and kind of data so that choice and about China China has invested 1.7 billion in the African sector and ICT sector is the fifth largest investment that China has made over the since 2000 so this is research from 2000 and there are some challenges that we faced I'm sure some of you might be aware and I'd be curious to hear more father on this when Zambia watchdog talked about Huawei Technologies being installed on intermediaries so going back to your conversation about intermediaries shown that telcos are being mandated by governments or are cooperating with government under some very shadowy regimes to to to install certain devices India in India networks or Ethiopia Human Rights Watch reports four years ago where if you're tell the only telco in in Ethiopia cooperating with that ZTE the Chinese company and the kind of software and the kind of investment that was made so looking at that and then they uses rights and what has happened some some uses having to flee out of their countries to exile because of of some of these kind of technologies and what is happening to them and their families so that's just what I'd emphasize and echo what Kathleen mentioned and say that in in Africa we yes I know we don't have as much data production those we only have 23 draft or enacted laws and out of these 23 we only have nine data protection authorities but we need to empower them you need to empower ourselves to to have these conversations further and to make people aware because privacy is not foreign to Africa I'll give the example yes and the African chatter for human rights privacy is not explicitly mentioned but under dignity the right to dignity it has been interpreted by various courts all over Africa to mean privacy so privacy is an inherently African thing it's not a European or a Chinese thing that you're trying to figure out as Africans that's a valid observation privacy is also an organic concept in Africa Sean and let me ask you a question before I move to pod because I think I want to get him on this point you have complete disregard for what corporations and governments do with your data in the United States of America and yet you make such a large noise around Russia being able to influence manipulate use data use profiles may create fake news and and challenge the political systems or the certain election that took place a couple of years ago so why is why was America surprised why were the Americans so surprised and shocked when your open systems were manipulated by some other actor and and then the next question is that what does the country like the u.s. to which actually continues to collect data which continues to profile people and has actually created perfect instruments for others to hijack and use coming from a democracy at one extreme of the free speech antipode I would agree with you I'm amazed at how surprised many of my fellow citizens were with the ability to manipulate these very open platforms as a technologist and a strategist that opportunity was aware to me anyone who knows that you can astroturf your Twitter account and by followers who knows that you can even though you're not supposed to register under multiple fake accounts and spread information it struck me quite curious that how surprised people were that is one of the downsides of having a very open system of freedom of expression is it is manipulable going back to the word you used in the beginning and it ties to something that is very near and dear to my heart the distinction between the political and practical side of privacy and right now you may think that I disagree strongly with Kathleen or mr. Kenyon Ito in reality I think we all Harbor an interest or that privacy at the level of human dignity what I'm talking about is the practical ability of you to manage your own privacy while we may have legal protections does that protect you from malfeasance by a bureaucrat who decides to monitor you does that protect you from prosecution or persecution of sectarian violence if the opposing party is in power the legal protections themselves do not necessarily prevent those abuses you need the practical protection this is why when I see countries outlawing the use of Virtual Private Networks or certain levels of encryption that to me is the true challenge of privacy because it takes control over your privacy away from you and hands it to someone else maybe the government may be a foreign tech company I've sat down with large social media companies and ask them how they decide to deregister terrorist list terrorist websites or media accounts I say which standard do you use are using the US State Department list of terrorists are using United Nations Security Council list of terrorists your reliance on another political entity so turning it back to the question and looking at my own society I think where the United States freedom and dream expression community is coming at is trying to create the technological or the practical guarantees of privacy in case legal and political guarantees are abused at certain points oh I think that's a good point but the problem is that you will create the technological guarantees for privacy for a few those who can afford it if you if you make encryption and technology solutions as the precondition of personal dignity then basically those five million or five billion who cannot afford those solutions are left out of that particularly and I recognize that as not only a challenge but a Collective need that is why I'm so excited to work with sci-fi in India in here that is why I want to engage audiences like this and say don't rely purely on Silicon Valley and companies that follow American culture and American rules don't rely exclusively on Shenzhen or Chinese development and companies that breathe that utilize the Chinese cultural and political model build your own capabilities that serve your own interests and I think getting the youth involved getting venture capital involved grassroots financing to create this technologies in your own countries in your own regions to fulfill your own cultural standards I think that's hugely important and that's part of the reason I'm excited to be involved something like sci-fi thank you let me turn to mr. Ford yesterday when we were having a conversation with some eminent individuals of the Moroccan society before this conference began we were told by a few that there is today a degree of discomfort over many of these big social media companies and how certain conversations and certain behavioral patterns can challenge can undermine the fabric of society in in this region as well sitting in Morocco how do you react to what you've been hearing in the US around the Cambridge analytical episode and about the whole question of external interference in domestic political debates see what really nice Valley Valley municipal melibea I don't know any less to mow ahead and basically cable it had a theater mode dorama come near button see it metier their asset which I wanted it was like in door of melamine handsome enojado vomit vomit illusion bc fatty moody aaron little married Alpesh area be we serve attract look in the linear mean I mean and a Tejada toffee Alma de atacama when we become at the sadaqa at unit showed afternoon is a lakh rupee image Mata ataxia showed with its montage Tsuburaya I'll finish out a film at El Alamein hot afternoon logically hola support bien el mohammed fearful metal Martin the Tower of eternity Ione ee-vie abu allah – Musa Villa Yeti was reported well Harriet Elgin a I wilfordii a little insane win buried a lotta Puna edgerton if Cheryl hiatal hasta la an Al Maghrib Lamia truck michelle lujan the mismo immunity Willits alakina dr. noon she memoir mineral materials that he to say he fits well Emily a technology rahman irr whatever do mohammed well a keen see how did in Mayan I'm not either I'm can rockzilla heck young CUNY and what he accomplished it was a lot at females unlock the rat mana which I will Renee Lomax Wilma tired I mean suddenly electroni Allah team in felony honky no lil Martin William canoodle maja me a Luger muchacha de tocqueville melibea who sold washer at Induna illusory illa Allah illa father in a coma mr. Cod let me ask you another question how easy is it for governments such as those in Morocco and other parts of this continent to engage with many of these transnational corporations and big social media companies what is the relationship in case you need to engage with them to respond to certain situations how easy or how difficult is this is this partnership with big companies which your citizens use in their daily conduct of their lives Dabangg who is or a Claddagh Tar Valon which I didn't I'll finish montage alpha neutralized every item attack with machete caching doli aluminium alpha she had a little past that we were Amish unanimity an akuna had definite Alma fit well more traffic delicate Alta will rock me shaming a lady a tariff or a dar al Qaeda al Mashiro al-kabir lydia reformer it means a lot minutes I'm going to turn it over to all of you now to ask questions to Sean Kathleen Percy and forth let me find you muster up your hands and I can start seeing them let me ask Percy a question is it possible for the African Union to come up with a common position because that is a precondition for the success of this model in Europe shared sovereignty and creating a collective is the first step before you can have a GDP our that works in the case of EU so can we see an African Union come up with the common position and in line with what you have just mentioned in terms of the research you've done yes just just to reiterate the African Union came up with a common position in 2014 which was not an easy position because it was a process we started in 2012 whereby the first conversations were only among security people so the importance of having these conversations open to everyone including the common citizens and academic researchers civil society and other people to have to give you this conversion and the convention changed from only say by security only to have a whole section on personal data protection and I just mentioned just one sentence in one sentence article 13 of the African Convention on cybersecurity and personal data protection has various principles when it comes to what is lawful data processing what is lawful within about data protection and some of it is for example the first principal consent legitimacy lawfulness fairness papas the disconnect collection processing must be Mesaba clear purpose must be relevant the storage must be in a way that is accurate confidential and secure and and this position is being replicated countries right now are trying to come up cybersecurity personal data protection and electronic transaction laws as I mentioned only 23 countries have so far drafted or are in the process of coming up with with laws or with empowering their interpretation authorities but only nine have been fully successful so we are headed in their way not yet yeah but you headed there but then just to point out the GDP air is not perfect that's something we as article 19 all they are globally we have criticized some of the aspects for example when some of the content removal process procedures continued revision procedures are not in human rights friendly – so it's not perfect so we as African side if you look at the convention the African Convention is a bit different from the gdpr because we try to ensure that these procedure the content removal moderation procedures are in at par with international based standards so we're not perfect and we are not trying to follow any of the models we're trying to come up with our own African narrative just to insist that we are pushing for our own African narrative and just to mention one thing two weeks ago we had a big win in Kenya Court case where we have been fighting for freedom expression and privacy where telcos why instructed just like in other parts of Africa to install surveillance equipment in their systems and and we as article 19 and other partners went to court and these are among other 10 code cases which we've won over the last five years on this issue and you see citizens care and that we went as I mentioned we do what our users want what our community want and citizens wanted us to defend them on this and we are happy that the courts sided with us on this and some of those surveillance regulations were thrown out and we are working now with the government to come up with new clearer human rights friendly regulations not just in Kenya but in Eastern Africa the 14 countries that we work in we have a hand here and we have a we have a couple of hands here can someone bring mics to the gentleman in the front we'll take another hand to the back of the gentleman then we'll come to the side we'll take four questions and then I'll come back to you can you make notes we will take a bunch of questions good morning my name is Cameron Elahi and I come from Silicon Valley and as an American C's and I think I can argue against a few things that were mentioned first of all as extension of the Patriot Act we found out that all of our phone calls were listened to all of our text data everything was being listened by the US government and thanks to Edward Snowden this became quite I guess he was a whistleblower that talked about that and there is a reason that he cannot come back to United States so we need to state the facts and if I remember correctly under President Obama he stopped some of these and said that some of these were illegal and the US government should not be the big brother how successful it has been and especially on their current condition that we have a president who says that even some credentials of the press need to be revoked I think that we cannot ignore the role of government in being the big brother and in terms of private sector I think it's important to make a distinction if I post something about my trip to a sci-fi which I did and giving a lecture in this conference that is perfectly fine to my contacts because I post it as public but I don't appreciate some either government or Facebook itself or LinkedIn take the list of say 27,000 contacts I have are linked in all of their data and sell it or provide it to a nefarious entity who uses the information about my friends to come and influence me and my friends and affect our elections that is wrong good question I I want some of your contacts on LinkedIn 27,000 that's fantastic can we can we go to the lady next to him please it is right there right there let's just take those and then the lady behind me thank you my name is Miriam 10 to come behind I come from Senegal in Guinea in West Africa there's a lot of talk but what you said but we didn't go a little bit further down in you and when you speak about our own cultural reality having a little cultural narrative I really appreciate what mr. a prime said the reality is that we also have our own cultural barriers when it comes to technology and we want to talk about the African women and we want to talk about gender and that when we talk about the divide not only when we're talking about countries of the in the south but we also have some issues with how we want to protect certain citizens certain groups in vulnerable groups so when you talk about cybersecurity I'd love the scarf French to also go a little bit further down as you come to Africa we have these realities when we talk about sex trafficking we talk about human trafficking we talk about women working in the informal sector that having access not understanding what this your great revolution is all about or technical technological revolution is all about so all the problems we are talking about it's a reality for 100% of the people but anyway you go down to the women 50% of course of our countries at least in West Africa we're also talking about specifically the questions now for you is that in your reflections how do you see tackling the issue the gender fight and we know that African women has a serious part to take in this question I would like all of you to respond because I think this is extremely important the minorities gender many of these communities are more prone to a political action if their privacy is compromised and I think that's that's a proven established like the lady there behind the third question and finally we will go to the gentleman in the middle of the room yeah III couldn't it's not it's not a lady but I think you bought it because I told you were cause of the light and some piers needs to be maybe maybe raised or at least lower to low maximum people to connect Internet one of these I'm in the German in front of me I mean what about Facebook privacy or Tyra's as partner here we access partners fear as additional partners and Facebook is our client I don't know if we should take that offline or not about the privacy he mentioned Facebook it's not actually Facebook it was Cambridge analytical but I think that's another issue we can discuss later on in another forum on private yeah I think that's offline conversation thank you for your intervention and finally the last question please bring down you can have the mic in the middle of the room here in the next round I'll come to the left corner my observation is on can you introduce yourself my name is Keith Abraham I'm coming from Zambia my contribution on observation is on Sean's comments regarding the need for the user themselves to protect themselves and ensure their own privacy because they shouldn't allow the companies and the government's to do that for them where I'm coming from I think more important than privacy's that people are more interested in access a good example that is when you are say trying to access Airport internet you click the button that allows all your information to go to the airport and they get your data in everything you are more interested in access and I think that that's the reality and I think in order for governments to be held accountable we need to put in place stronger mechanisms to ensure that governments and companies don't collect data from users and use it in the final sorry again you just repeat the last sentence and hold the mic close to you general data protection regulation so how is it going to respond to the widespread misuse of personal data how is gdpr going to be the Silver Bullet that will save the entire world Kathleen will explain to us now Kathleen will begin with you and will go down the road like with just commenting on the things that I heard you from Silicon Valley I didn't catch your name I just heard you right you right Cameron I think you pointed to a very important element as in you choose what you want to share and exactly that choice needs to change and the kind of links to something that Shawn mentioned earlier as in legal protections are not going to save the world and that also sort of addresses GDP our GDP is a great step forward and because of the fine mechanism it gives enforcement teeth because it's going to be very costly for companies not to comply and also it's not only for companies that are based in the European Union but it applies to any resident within the use of any company that does service with the European Union has to comply which also makes it rather costly to adopt different standards for different constituencies so I'm actually counting on the ripple effects of the GDP I and I know that India is already working on a and F I mentioned that also it's not perfect it's a 100 page document I don't think we're expecting anyone to get there it also took six years to actually get it implemented so it's definitely not a perfect process but it's getting us there on the practical issue companies have to step up their game and I mean it when I say we need to start thinking in the long term profit and forget about like short-term profit is not going to make a change but system change requires all actors to get together and for the vulnerable communities and especially the tender divide I think that is part of that also because the system is not going to change and cannot continue to oppress and exploit those that are already vulnerable because of those divides like existing divides that we have in the offline world are just being amplified and if we want that to change then all stakeholders need to come together and we need to find ways in which we make sure that people who don't know how to protect themselves offline don't even get exploited further in the online world I think that is a very tough challenge and I'm super curious to learn more about that and I'm very glad that this conversation especially from cultural narratives is happening here also what was the other thing tune the government also protect the users and more important than privacy is access obviously access is critically important in order to actually reap the benefits of the digital society but I think if we're again short term long term we want everyone to be have access to in order to enrich their lives but you also need to make sure that you still have a space where you can be yourself so there's also up to the government's to make sure that your rights are protected and that the companies adhere to the law that exists in order to make sure that once you come online or even before you come online your rights are already being sold out I think that's a very dangerous trend son I would like you also to respond to the implied question in the gentleman's question case he asked that you're actually preying on the vulnerable as they seek access you are actually compromising their personal space and in that sense how do you now think about practical measures to prevent this from happening okay thank you for all the questions I will try to address them in the or they received to my fellow citizen Cameron from the United States I must respectfully correct you on the first articulation of what you said you said we it was revealed that we were all being listened to by the US government in my opening comments I made a very clear distinction between listening to content or looking at the connectivity data this telephone number called that telephone number this email that emailed that email address but without the content you are correct that under the section 702 program and others and the for Intelligence Surveillance Act that in certain instances with a court warrant content is listened to but that is on a per person court authorized basis and that is true in many governments and countries and I would offer and you're up the standards getting that kind of surveillance is actually much lower than in the United States what you referred to as the ubiquitous listening is actually not the ubiquitous listening is the ubiquitous connectivity data and we can debate the merits the strengths and the shortfalls of that but that is actually what is being universally collected and those programs on the Patriot Act have been continued so while I respectfully disagree with you on that aspect I would invite you to I have seen that movie and I actually speak from a position of knowledge having been very well informed about those programs and what was actually happening so I will respectfully agree to disagree with you sir I would invite you to look at the latest odni statistical transparency report it's a great document and it actually identifies what they have been looking at for the last year you may or may not believe it but it's an interesting resource you may be interested in just came out I do however greatly agree with you on your concern about the private sector possibly revealing more than you are interested to or merchandising your data I personally do not like multiple user agreements with certain entities and I choose to not do business with those social media platforms I simply don't use certain platforms who would use my data in ways that I do not want to authorize them to then of course we have the example of Cambridge analytic aware even Facebook has acknowledged that the activity conducted violated its own principles and then we're into an ex post event punitive measures how do you remediated as Kathleen says gdpr is about putting teeth on enforcement it helps solve the poem after the fact and deter future instances I hope what we've learned and what Facebook is learned from Cambridge analytical will help prevent similar things in the future but that's why I talk about practical security rather than political or legal security the rest of my comments are going to be quick but they follow from this broader discussion gender and privacy and tack I think it's absolutely important everywhere in the world possibly more acutely in certain societies Africa now slope I think it's important globally and identity is a huge challenge because you want it and you don't want it you don't want it when it would lead to persecution of female or other gender or minority ethnicities or religions you do want it when you want truth of voice for example in the u.s. elections we complain that without identity our democracy was violated I can also refer to some very unfortunate examples where in the Arab Spring or in the Syrian conflict certain voices that were claiming to be local and of the people I'm thinking about a specific case where a user claimed to be a Syrian lesbian suffering human rights violations it actually unfortunately turned out to be a u.s. white male just having fun on the Internet that's a case where I would want to know the identity of the voice to know who I'm supporting and if they are legitimate so it's a double-edged sword ma'am and I don't have a perfect solution for it the gentleman talked about collectivity and maximum connectivity I think that's incredibly important for bringing the world online and while I don't represent any company I know there are certain companies that are starting to put balloon held hotspots around the world trying to get connectivity to more places I favor getting everyone online the need the ability to protect yourselves another gentleman asks I think we need accountability and transparency of governments more and more including my own and including every other one represented unless you know what they're doing you can't protect your rights and that brings me the last comment about recommendations these of the companies I recommend every single one of you read the user agreements and start mobilizing for user agreements that you find more acceptable and let the marketplace deliver the product that you want demand driven products not supply-side driven products and of course visa vie your government's demand the right to use technologies that protect your privacy don't leave it in the hands of a bureaucrat or a US corporate entity demand technology that you can use to protect yourself and demand it to be legal in your country thank you I'm shown again I would like to reclaim the space the conversation is happening on the stage not on this side of the room it's distracting when you are speaking and the panelists are responding Percy so I'll start with the question about gender from Miriam just to acknowledge that in Africa sub-saharan Africa 43% of connectivity but it's less by on the women's side in girls side it's 43% so we need to do more less less women are connected so they do the divides that happen offline are now translating online we need to establish more partnerships to to ensure that more women get connected and just just to go back to the research that article 19 did with women journalists where we found women journalists were withdrawing from online those who are on may know going back offline because of their privacy rights being infringed so there's that's going now to the next question about the nexus between access and privacy when people come online and then you discover oh come regionality that came and did work in Kenya and this is what happened I was getting texts being invited to go and vote at a specific polling station that I bought that didn't have triangulated all that my bio data from the election register from the telco register and you have all this data mapped out and you are sending me a specific message that makes some people get scared I know some poor I know who don't want to go back online after the complete analytical walk that happened in Kenya and this is now public knowledge we even had a conversion with Facebook two weeks ago in Kenya where they came to Kenya and the myths the public had talked about it so the issue of access we need to work more to ensure that spectrum policy is more open to new forms of connectivity so this in a way building human rights by design on to spectrum policy conversation such that when you are a company and I'm not going to mention the names of the companies but some of the companies who are having balloons in the air in Kenya in some in Central Africa among other places certain Africa or working to connect people trying to make sure that when you're doing that don't collect the data that is not necessary so building privacy by design such that our human rights by design such that you don't block certain content you don't infringe on the human on the freedom of expression and information why or when they are connecting using your services and then the last bit about connectivity in an African design right now we're coming up with an African continental free-trade agreement I'm sure you some of you have had some of the government's here Ghana Kenya Rwanda and others have signed on to these so we are getting there as an African we're coming up with an African narrative as Africans so we are getting their energy there but just as Kathleen mentioned about the European experience Europe took several years to get where they are we are also getting there were taking those baby steps together here in Thibodaux Larry Moe and Fillmore it was ill little muchacha de wasabi be needin limited Cheryl Umbria well Ocado ageism job analysis team and nice but Annette Letty test 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and Africa what I understood is that you said in order to preserve the cultural identity we have to rely on technologies of our own I mean were you being sarcastic I mean of course you know that technologies did not originate or would not created in this part of the world we have to rely on silicon for technology this is my question maybe I'm just I misunderstood the other question I think there is a dilemma maybe on the human rights side of the of thinking I mean you all of us we are requiring maximum connectivity for everybody but when we offer maximum connectivity to certain individuals or groups or organizations such as Isis for example or others we decide to deprive them of all connectivity I mean it's it's very difficult how can we deal with this thank you let me add to that and for Kathleen there is also an assertion in many quarters that you have your obsession with privacy and personal space has led to your inability to crack down on certain subversive elements that have mushroomed in Europe there is a real fear around that the gentleman I am I said ma , I come from Uganda ICT for development my question seems to go to the human resource manager Minister of Justice and my my fellow East African from from I I seem to perceive that Africa's problem is not policy Africa seems to import policy from China from the u.s. from Europe we seem to copy a lot of things from everywhere and let the justice system seems to be extremely slow at implementing the policy with hard cases in Uganda where judges needed interpreters on what had happened we had someone's account hacked and the judge needed someone to help them understand exactly what had happened don't you think Africa's problem is not just policy it seems to be something else there are two hands here please on the side of the we come to these two gentlemen here yeah go ahead my name is motherland superior and this in South Africa my I have two questions but I will make them quick the first one has to do as I feel like the point of our discussion here go ahead go okay okay on on managing disruption managing disruption as opposed to actually asking the difficult questions about how the state itself can be a source of insecurity and it's being ossified i think what we have seen like the players can we have the questions i I need to move very quickly so please pose the questions so what is the role of new actors in a time where the state has or technology is changing the identity of what is traditionally understood as a state okay the state is is very different today what is the role of new actors to fill the void the gentleman behind please come Alec – and professor of computer science from Egypt in fact between the people of openness and the people of privacy there is a gray area and everything is being played on this gray area that's why people disagree with each other it's not only a matter of law it is also a matter of ethics ethics plays a major role how to transform ethics to lose and ethics are not the same all over the world what is convenient in the West is not necessarily out this may be different from one content the question please we are running out of time and the question is how to transform local ethics into Lowe's thank you so how can policy be culturally contextual okay we will come to the gentleman in the front last intervention the mic here please I'm not I've run out of time I'll have to end with it then of course we'll have plenty of time during the day to have these conversations offline Sean is going to be here for two days you can catch it later as well you again the question is not Sean and I truly got most of the attacks but we forgive you but the question is you have spoken about that is not going to be Big Brother and then yet right away you spoke about the new generation and not really cleansing and to privacy the same way we all generation cleanse into it or explain it or want it are you inserting the idea to the young generation or do you have data that tells you that the young generation doesn't want or doesn't have the same values of us provided for the private information and so on so it brings me back to the question of who who comes first the egg or the chicken or the hand or does the media form the public opinion or the public opinion forms the media and in your case okay are you going to insert the idea so Sean are you manipulating all of us into believing that privacy is not important that's the question he's asking okay so I think with that's it we are done for the questions I'm going to give you all a minute each and you can choose the question you want to answer if you don't answer some questions I will apologize on your behalf so go ahead one minute each yeah you start gathering I'm trying to the question around does privacy protect criminals in a criminal element terrorist attack ah I think that a faulty shot to me as such because they're obviously we're all trying to make sure that terrorism isn't taking over the world I don't think there's any disagreement on that and we want to make sure that just as in the offline world we have societal problems that we need to deal with and the online world that remains safe and welcoming to everyone and we don't want anyone to be silenced because they're crinimal elements or manipulators or a terrorist online that use that environment for their own purposes and to spread their messaging obviously that's something we need to take care of I don't think that privacy is an obstacle to making that happen it's just a matter of how you actually impinge on that so I'm just going to tackle that one question because it was directly addressed to me in the interest of time I will also only speak to the two that were directly engaged to me to the Egyptian journalist ma'am I would never disrespect you in this kind of a forum by being sarcastic about issues so important I truly believe that new technology solutions can come out of developing countries to meet their own cultural needs and political desires I simply need to point to China that has created Alibaba Tencent Baidu companies that are certainly derivative or resemble American companies but have the Chinese character that that nation seeks I see wonderful students attending u.s. PhD programs at Caltech MIT working in Silicon Valley and going back to other countries around the world to develop startups in those countries I also see wonderful educational programs starting in Bahrain and for one example where I've recently been at work and other countries so I absolutely believe that there can be technology solutions coming from other countries so that the world is not exclusively dependent on Silicon Valley in Shenzhen there should be a range of options and you should be able to pick what serves your interests and on denying connectivity functionality and security are always a trade off and it's about finding the right balance for your society that actually becomes a political question okay and to the gentleman the front row I truly believe that the state itself is not the driving factor of big data analysis and the Big Brother concept the distinction you've pointed out what was seemingly possibly an in consonance between two things I said in fact they're not because looking at the youth they are voluntarily in a legal sense giving up that privacy through the user agreements now I do not profess to speak on behalf of the youth we're twenty years younger than me but you asked if I have data I have data from all of them who are choosing to participate in snapchat Instagram Facebook and a range of other things instead of demanding a different product now when when we look at some of the CEOs of those companies they are 15 20 years younger than me they are from a different generation yet they are still creating this model in this construct I hope and I encourage them the youth to make their own future don't relive my life don't relive my grandfather's life define the technology you want to use in your life and create it back to what I was speaking to the lady thank you very much yes just to mention I'm a young person and I want privacy this is something you just want to point out that when you mentioned about it being designed in that manner it's a it's a bit of a false false presumption that you don't want privacy just to be emphasized is a number of research which shows that young people want privacy yeah all over the world one privacy so yes basically they're quite ignorant of what what what it is and and so just to answer questions and then also just on that point if we put the responsible to the individual it is like putting the responsibility of protecting clean air on the individual it should be a public responsibility privacy should be a public responsibility we shouldn't push on the individual to protect yourself air quality control chilling gear and individual responsibility so the question on privacy openness versus privacy issue of ethics building making sure that policy are yes but cultural contact contextual I'll mention the various principles that various people have come up with thirteen principles only 16 proportionality which are agreed all over the Africa I mentioned about the African Union coming up with the Convention and there are various principles which relate to the Kenya add to the African not culture not just one import from one place as I mentioned that differences between those principles and GDP are so we are building policies in a way that the cultural contextual and then the question about from the East African about that was directed to me Africa's problem policy or is African problem beyond policy I'll say there's so many policies that are in place or so many laws that we've signed on to international but then we don't have the capacity to to implement because of the knowledge gap some of the lawyers some of the judges that we deal with or some of the people that we deal with on a day-to-day basis are at a different generational gap and we have to translate these technological issues to a way that they are able to understand so that's the big challenge for is importantly Uganda case locus that you low court case that you're talking about it I'm very well aware about so some of the challenges that we are facing are that it's generational gap capacity-building thank you what okay good so can i before we close this panel we have the last intervention for this morning and after that we have earned our lunch it's been a very rich discussion but let me invite ambassador Sanjay Verma additional signatory Ministry of External Affairs to deliver his keynote address and this will be the last intervention for this morning after his address the beta will come and make a few housekeeping announcements you guys will sit on stage and we will applaud all of you together thank you so my panelists friends ladies and gentlemen when I look at the topic it says technology innovation society technology what kind of technology we discussed a lot about Silicon Valley we discussed big corporates but technology that we need in a developing world has to be appropriate it has to be affordable when I look at the next word in the theme which is innovation what kind of innovation how can innovation be encouraged how can regulation encourage the innovation generally regulations are taken in a negative sense but regulations are have to be there in order to encourage innovation society it has to be digitally inclusive digitally because we are talking about the digital domain but otherwise society has to be inclusive any solution which is to be found has to include everyone without discriminating on the gender the riches or the awareness with that let me now start on the topic which I have been given which is basically India Africa Digital partnership and here I would like to emphasize the word partnership we are not prescribing we are just sharing best practices that we have which may not be the best practices the world has seen we are a partner to Africa and that thought had come long long back when we look at ICT partnership it started way back in 2005 when pan-african a network was conceptualized and that was to be implemented in all the 54 countries in Africa today I'm glad to tell you that there are 47 countries which are already participating in it what is it all about it is about creating telemedicine access it is about VoIP it is about education it is about metrological services and E governance ecommerce so the list goes on when I look at education there are about 30,000 new students in Africa who have been provided with degree certificates and diplomas through these courses which are conducted remotely through a network project the entire project the cost of the entire project the concept of the entire project the management of the entire project was initially borne by the comment of India but do we want to own this project for all the time no infrastructure yes so basically we come to the next stage which is the capacity development we have to build capacity in our friends in Africa so that they can manage their own affairs so that they can manage this network and then feel empowered and enriched through this particular initiative taken by the government of India digital divide is being breached through this when we talk of capacity building we also have other programs in tow they are known as I took scholarship program that is Indian technical and economic cooperation schemes there are programs through which the African friends can go to India and study that is ICC our scholarship there are CV Raman a scholarship particularly in the field of Agriculture but that also includes cyber technologies and tools of digital world included in it we rather prefer to Train master trainers who can come back and train other trainees in their own language and the cultural ecosystem so therefore that that had been India's partnership with Africa in the past what is it that we are looking in the future because future is what is being discussed here whether it is privacy issue whether is the issue of securing the cyberspace I'm not saying cybersecurity because to ask to citizens securing the cyberspace is much more important to than just one vertical which is cyber security transfer of best practices how do we initiate a conversation a dialogue with Africa to see what best practices should be shared as far as we are concerned from the point of view and perspective of India we are ready to share it all we are creating centers of excellence in Africa one has recently been set up in Morocco as well in the information technology domain we have various other countries which are recipient of such centers of excellence we are keen to support it all the way that it takes we are keen to develop that the capacity in our African friends to take it further the digital India has led us to believe that inclusive societies are extremely important for governance the tools the capacity-building that we are mentioning are all in order to make everyone included in the digital economy and digital society we have seen the increase increased participation by those who are benefitting through digital access unless people participate government cannot hear all the voices so it is very important to have access provided in the previous session someone talked about the access without access we cannot dream of a digital world we cannot dream of digital inclusiveness therefore what we are doing in India we are trying to roll out as FiberNet fiber-optic network as possible by 2020 in fact we have a dream that we will connect each household in India through fiber-optic by 2022 if that dream comes true we are working towards that then probably we will be the first country in the world to have done that and that too without any discrimination so that is going through the government Network private players are participating in that and they are strengthening determines hand in reaching to the next to the last person on the Indian soil while we will take trying to roll out the social inclusiveness through digital media and digital tools what we realized that we do not have a mean to identify people very strange a country a civilization which is sold did not have a national or doesn't have a national identity card so we did not really know how to reach a person where to reach that person that is what led to the development of biometrics based identity we call it our heart it is biometric based identity it is on the fingerprints as well as on iris the data has to be kept secured as we as we heard the data remains with the government and we maintain a type of security which is able to secure the data to the threats of Representatives technological tools tomorrow the threat will increase and then the government will have to reinvent itself and see that those data are secure again so it's it's a dynamic ecosystem we cannot say that today data is secure so tomorrow also the data will remain secure and therefore it needs a lot of innovation a lot lot of technological capacity building in order to keep us going and keep the data safe and secure for each and every citizen of India while we identified our people thereafter we looked at their demands which came through the demographic analysis of the data and services reached their what was the main problem in India it's a huge country the government is very small as compared to most of the governments if you look at the per capita government servant per capita people government servant it's very very small in a even in a capital city of India you have one police officer every 10,000 persons so it is a very small government though the numbers will be large because the number the population itself is huge so how do we reach to the last person on in in India for the service delivery purpose this has helped us now do they have laptops do they have tablets because yesterday evening there was a conversation on laptops they don't have then how do we reach them as a government how do they reach us as citizens they reach us through $8 mobile phone this $8 mobile phone is able to deliver the services that they require this $8 mobile phone is able to upload their demands to the government so that the government can come back to them again through the digital mode and help them out it has been able to sort out the problem of leakage wherever you have middlemen there will be leakage so there was a series of a hierarchy of metal men who were responsible for hugely cages from the service delivery mechanism by the government in India it has also led to banking the unbanked it was extremely important for India because the benefits were supposed to be transferred to them that has also happened and I'm talking about last two years when you have seen all these developments coming through so it's not difficult we are there our friends in Africa has been asking us as to if the similar model or same model could be implemented in their countries we say we have the model tell us your requirements we'll come help you out and the cost will be borne on the Government of India so we are not coming to you with Commerce we are not coming to you to take your resources away we are just coming to you because we where there where some of the African countries are now we went through the same path we want whatever we have learnt through going through the same path can be shared with you and then you can choose options have to be there so then the communities the countries can choose what is it that they actually want from us and we'll be ready to share that with you in cyberspace all countries are equal in fact the weakest link in the cyber space is the most vulnerable space within sub space within the cyber space a group of 20 people can bring down a country elected government it can bring down a banking service so therefore earlier we were talking about geographies big countries big armies big military is able to invade and therefore defeat today you are talking about a group of 50 hundred people who can bring down the whole system therefore the weakest link is the most vulnerable can we bring capacities in those weakest links so that I am secure cyberspace doesn't know any boundaries or limits so if someone wishes to launch an attack from an island which has no population no rule of law it is equally dangerous to all of us whether it is the largest cyber country or the poorest cyber country so therefore it is very important that we keep talking on how to secure the cyberspace how to secure the world through cyber technologies they will be and this is a responsibility for everyone not only the government government is just one of the stakeholders it is a process which has we do which has to be driven through multi-stakeholder approach government knows governance government may not know technology government may not know the innovation of technologies that you do government may not know the incremental development that you do in the technology so everyone has to come on a platform including judiciary's including the financial companies health service providers everyone is to come on it and then the multi-stakeholder approach can move forward to secure all of us though I am talking in as a common servant but I'm also a citizen I also need myself to be secured and therefore all of us have to come together in this what we are doing in Africa in this regard is that we are having our computer emergency response team cert to collaborate with similar computer emergency response teams in Africa those countries which is still do not have a CRT we are trying to help them creating one with Morocco we are we have already finalized the text with the permission of the ambassador if I can say that we have already finalized the text which is going to be signed fairly soon and that will be assert to cert cooperation agreement we have a friend from Egypt a team from Egypt was in India seven days back for stq see related activities which is basically norms and standardization of equipment not not norms of state behavior cybercrime was mentioned time and again it's a huge challenge and cybercrime doesn't only include the the financial cybercrime to me it also includes the terrorism which is perpetrated through cyber cyber tools therefore for all of us to live in peace and dignity it is very important that we cooperate on cybercrime we have a globally acceptable framework through which we can control our own lives and defend ourselves from any type of cyber crime emanating from the cyber tools a lot of discussions are going on on all these topics globally we are a developing country we can understand the concerns of a developing country we are members of almost all these committees and subcommittees and cyber space related issues all over the world please tell us if you have any concern which we can hear on your behalf in such international conversations and discussions we will be very happy to do so and finally where what we can do further is through very affordable cyber tools can we look at providing a better price to our farmers can we tell him what is weather tomorrow it is going to rain or not very simple things I'm not talking about extremely technologically savvy tools these are very very simple things but this can change the lives of our people and there it is because of them that we are there it is because of them that the big car crates are there unless they reach to the last man on the earth last woman on earth it will not be possible for them to grow all the time we can also look at various bilateral mechanisms with individual African countries as well as we can look at various multilateral engagements including one with the African Union to take it forward and share our best practices with them ladies gentlemen this is what I wanted to talk about from India's perspective and how are we cooperating with Africa but this is only limited by 15 minutes with Samir had given to me but anything more that you want to learn or tell me please do so so that I can take home some of the suggestions which you have thank you very much once again please also join me in thanking the panel who was extremely engaging on the critical question of privacy and personal data all of them are also available let me invite bata to tell us what we do next over the next two hours Mader please take the mic and show us the way thank you Samir I will now move into our lunch lunch is being served here on your right is the jet-set room and in Fedor's which is one level above I just wanted to highlight also that while the conversations here are trilingual the conversations over the lunch session and Fedor's and jet-set will only be in English he will now move to those rooms lunch will be served as you enter and the panels will begin a half an hour after you after the people have gathered in the rooms thank you




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