Ben Shapiro Clashes With Sam Harris On Religion And Morality.


Let”s talk about where you think morality comes from. So, in the religious view, obviously there are certain things that I believe are capable of understanding by any sentient human being. I don’t believe all human beings in the absence of religion are immoral people who go around murdering their neighbors and raping their sisters. I think that I think that — and, in fact, this is pretty well-embedded in Judaic philosophy the idea that there is this sort of natural law theology, where you, as just a normal person, know not to kill people, and know not to steal, and know to set up courts of law. This is what they call the seven commandments to Noah, but the idea is that anyone can basically discover these things. And there are universals across culture about you’re not supposed to murder your brother. But, the, the biblical reading is that to reach a more sophisticated level of morality that leads to a sort of right- based society we see here, you at least need the, the catalyzing enzyme of, of, a Judeo-Christian religion in order to get here. That would, I think, be the most rationalistic argument on behalf of Judeo-Christian values But, where is “here” again? Uh, “here” would be a civilization that values individual rights above the values of the collective. Uh, that says that people ought to be treated, to use the biblical phrase, as made in the image of God, that we should treat individuals as made in the image of God. That does not happen in the absence of a Judeo-Christian value system That’s the religious argument. Uh, so… Although, that is more of a historical argument. Right. That’s what I’m saying. It’s a rationalistic argument. Because the, the deeply religious argument would be “God said so, so do it.” Right? But that’s not the argument that I think is the most compelling, because that only works if you believe in God and if you believe in revelation. So that’s not the argument I tend to make because I don’t find it intellectually convincing. It’s an argument from authority, which of course, is not particularly convincing. So I tend to make the historical argument, which is that history brought us to… that, that The reason we are at this point in history is because without that particular catalyzing enzyme, You don’t get what you have here, which is why the west, and western civilization crop up in a Judeo-Christian system, but don’t crop up in for example, Islamic countries and Islam’s been around for a thousand years. So, number one, what do you make of that argument? And then, I want to get into where you think morality comes from. Right. Well, a few points. One, I’m not convinced by that historical argument. I think you can cherry-pick the data either way, and come up with a different conclusion. And, the… Even if I agreed with it, it wouldn’t make the case I think you’d want to make. Because it, it’d be an instance of what’s called the genetic fallacy, which is: If we… Even if we granted that our respect for individual rights, say, came from a Judeo-Christian tradition, it doesn’t mean that it can only come from there, or that it even is best gotten from there. Um, and I would say that it actually hasn’t come principally from there. So, for instance, you could say that Christianity in particular, was responsible for, or in part responsible for the fall of the Roman Empire. Right? So, Christianity undermined the notion that the Roman Emperor was a god. You know, it made it harder to recruit true soldiers, and they had to farm it out to mercenaries, And, you know, it eroded, you know, what you might call “traditional Roman values.” And, then, the Western Empire fell, and, you know, we ushered in the dark ages Um, and, insofar as there was a reboot to civilization at that point He was large at the results of classical learning and phylosophical in sight of the antiquity in preserve by all the people and Islam avoid So I think you can have it any way you want to look at the history but it doesn’t get you there in terms of the moral content in this case: political or social content coming from the Bible or any other religious text.
-So, then why here? Meaning in Judeo-Cristian religion or civilization but not Islamic civilization because you mention we discover very style in XII and XI centuries was really beginning in the islamic world before




Comments
  1. The atheist worldview is the reason we're now normalizing abnormal things and losing standards. These "do as thou wilt" leads to chaos.

  2. Atheist obtain their moral standards from God and then say there is no god and he is evil. The intellectuals travel around the world giving lectures about their disbeliefs and the influencers set up YouTube challenges dedicated to mocking believers regurgitating the same talking points of their atheist leaders. Most of the atheist influencers are lgbt advocates so I can understand not wanting the bible getting in the way of their chosen lifestyle.

  3. It's so funny many Jew and Christian keep saying "Jewdeo-Christian value" and treat Muslim are bad and look down and treat their not group of them
    all of u guys believe same god!
    be kind to your little brother

  4. I think that Sam Harris argues from a position that has reaped the benefit of Judeo Christianity so much so that he can't envision the world of the past. The Bibles' talk of equality, that all humans are created and have the same value, was absolutely new and alien thinking back then. He comes from a world where just about everyone empathizes with everyone else. This was radically different than the common viewpoint of history. People back then could not fathom how we conduct ourselves now.

  5. wtf, ben began by claiming we needed religion to catalyze us to todays morally superior society. first off wtf does catalyze even mean. Christianity has been around for a long time and has done nothing for society except retard us. We don't need random beliefs to be a part of the 21st century

  6. To make a historical argument involving judao Christian beliefs, Judaism and Christianity must fist be history rather than the fiction it is.

  7. Ben is such a smug, faux intellectual. If you actually listen to him it’s obvious that he tries to articulate himself like an erudite scholar but it’s all just gibberish.

  8. Shapiro will cite material evidence for all his political arguments, but when asked to provide evidence for his religious beliefs, he can produce nothing. He has failed to take in in his own mantra: Facts don't care about your feelings.

  9. It’s funny people that like to use religion don’t want to help anybody vote no on health care. “ I’m not paying for that son of a bitch “ fucken religion. I believe in god Jesus. Not fucken religion

  10. Shapiro and his wife practice Orthodox Judaism.
    "Orthodox Judaism is a collective term for the traditionalist branches of contemporary Judaism. Theologically, it is chiefly defined by regarding the Torah, both Written and Oral, as literally revealed by God on Mount Sinai and faithfully transmitted ever since. Orthodox Judaism therefore advocates a strict observance of Jewish Law, or halakha, which is to be interpreted and determined only according to traditional methods and in adherence to the continuum of received precedent through the ages. It regards the entire halakhic system as ultimately grounded in immutable revelation, essentially beyond external and historical influence." Wikipedia.
    My comment:
    I have never seen Ben's god, Yahweh, and I have no interest in what he has revealed to the Hebrews from Mt. Sinai.
    It looks to me like man made fiction.
    Good luck, Ben.

  11. With all the focus on “my guy won the debate” in these comments it’s clear that this video went over most people’s heads, and they’re just projecting their internal conflicts onto Sam and Ben.

  12. Ben: Religion isn't responsible for bad religious actors.
    Secularism is responsible for non religious actors.
    Why because they didn't believe..“ what I believe "

  13. The problem is that even ben being so smart his limits are very visible when he talks about religious. For Sam Harris is really easy to dismiss every single argument that Ben say about religion cause both know that true doesn’t care about your mental gymnastic. True is true.

  14. I really enjoyed this talk. I've read Sam's books and watched Ben's lectures and I usually like what they have to say. In this case I think Sam has the better argument. It's a relief to hear a smart debate

  15. Why do Athiest say this person "Crushed" or "Destroy" that person? It's so immature. To me it's a beautiful thing to watch a Theist and atheist to have a peaceful debate. You can tell these two gentlemen are highly intelligent who respect each other. This why I love America and the soldiers who have sacrificed their lives to keep our freedom of speech.

  16. That was such a joy to watch ,two intellectuals having a respectful and civilized conversation with eachother about some of the most important ethical questions we have.We need more of these !

  17. I may not agree with Ben Shapiro, this particular topic especially isn't up his alley but I respect the civil discussion.

  18. that is easy, for me morality works like this, if someone does something that I don't like, I will know not to do that to someone else…or when I do something wrong, I can feel that what I did was wrong, and I correct it next time…why would you need something more than that?

  19. There is an actual law built into judeo-christianity. That is to murder women who are not virgins and to smash the heads of babies on rocks. Blessed be the man who does so saith the Lord.

    The golden rule? That predates Christianity. You can find references to it all over the world in multiple cultures without needing a religious figure to tell people that is good to treat people like you want to be treated.

    In Christianity if your religious leader says that you are God told you an evil deed is good, then that evil deed is good. And your God will torture you if you don't perform it.

    Look… religion can be of value to a society because many humans are not rational. Religion gets into their brains, enforces morality thru guilt and means society doesn't need to spend as many resources on enforcing mortality.

  20. I do have to say that I'm listening to this video, there are many times Ben Shapiro seems to be engaging honestly and asking genuine questions rather than seeking a gotcha. I see some intellectual curiosity there. It could be a mask hiding his intent but it seems genuine.

  21. It’s genetic: There were good people and bad people long before the Bible or the Koran or any religion ever existed. Most of that goodness or badness is genetically determined.

  22. Islam v. Christianity intense college campus debate: a professor jumps in! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzgV9gvE3nA&t=1535s

  23. This was almost unfair to pair Ben Shapiro and Sam Harris — Sam is an intellectual and philosophical powerhouse and has been developing his ideology for years. Ben is just an angry kid with a big vocabulary and some half-formed bad ideas.

  24. Shapiro thinks that putting speed on his words will make him inteligente about the subject in question. Sounds so bad.

  25. Sam, the main philosophical antagonism toward Galileo came from humanist philosopher of the Ptolemaic and Aristotlian points of view.
    The modern scientific movement was birthed by those who were faithful to believing in Genesis and The Gospel.

  26. Sam wrong and right about slavery but mostly wrong. The anti-slavery movement begins in The New Testament.
    Old Testament law around 'slavery' is vastly removed from Roman or other ancient slave models.
    Also, Ghandi was also inspired from The Beatitudes.

  27. If we're to believe Sam, we need not concern ourselves with – mind you, Ben never even challenged his notion of man and it's place here to begin with – silliness like how we got here in the first stance.

  28. Funny how he's giddy to accommodate Harris, yet, 17monthslater he's all good to challenge (and lose) Ravi Zaccharias.

  29. One last question from me and then I'll take my leave: If we're all here as a result of just space dust and timing, why then do we care about anyone else and their timing? Where then, comes morality?

  30. If Christianity is so bad and anti-intellectual and "Eastern" religions are so good, then how did Europe become the most advanced civilization? Are whites just inherently more creative and deeper thinkers?

  31. Science is the ability to objectively say if something is fundamentally true. Since there is no scientific evidence that God exists, it is unscientific to state that God is real. HOWEVER, since there is no evidence to suggest that God doesn’t exist it is also unscientific to say God does not exist. Denying God is an argument with no scientific support

  32. Doing cartwheels in my head trying to see how Ben is not wrong here.. admire his ability to agree to disagree and converse civilly here.. made my day

  33. Even though Sam Harris can perfectly well explain a moral that "works" for society, lower the overall pain, etc, he cannot explain why anyone must follow it. It will be a matter of interest. Perhaps one dictator could control all the other for his own benefit, while the masses have to suffer. How can Harris say this is immoral if it increases the dictator's wellbeing?

    Furthermore, how can Harris fail to see that without Free Will he is nothing but a parrot? Everything that is happening is simply playing the tape of History. You may call it Love, Reason, Trust, Moral, blablabla, but essentially it is atoms clashing with fancy name attached to it.

    Nothing is so frustrating as seeing a presumably intelligent man overlook all the problems, while constantly borrowing from the universe he denies.

  34. That is such a biased opinion that Rome fell due to traditional christian values, Edward Gibbons was criticized heavily for propagating this belief. Yes Christianity did take over Rome but their economic social values and over expenditure on Armies coupled with corruption n bad schemes was the big blow.

  35. Why are jews speaking about "judeo-Christian values" when they say Christianity is false. Just sneaking into christian ass, as they are in the christian country…

  36. San Harris are wrong about Gandhi, he was a great man, but He didn't learn the idea of non violence from his religion but from Leo Tolstoy a Christian.

  37. From this comment section and the claims that Ben was schooled I can see that wishful thinking is very popular. One must be quite deluded in order to re frame reality in such a radical way.

  38. I like Ben and a lot of other conservative intellectuals, but it's about time they give up on the god bullcrap. Religions have no place in civilized societies.

  39. The religious could've sent people like Shapiro to theological debates against the likes of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris and they send Sharpton.

  40. Harris could've just mentioned shaving your beard.
    I could see why people might not want to lose their slaves but surely they could handle it if some guy preferred to shave. : )

  41. I credit Ben Shapiro for engaging in a constructive conversation here, but it seemed to me that Sam Harris was answering every question with convincing rational thought. Ben seemed to genuinely enjoy Sam's responses. This was more of a Sam Harris lecture than a clash.

  42. lol …this is Sam Harris at his best. his intellect and skill with language has him eviscerating religious thought and dragging its innards through a tangle of barbed wire while being civilized about it! I swear I detect a barely contained grin on Sam's face when he's given reason to really turn up the heat on "intellectually" religious people like shapiro. I'm a little late in saying this since this interview is who knows how old… but thank you for what you did here Sam. and ty for posting this video conservative report

  43. I am french and I just wanted to tell that this BenShapiroo sounds to like thoses bad guys in Back To The Future. His voice shouldnt be allowed !

  44. 32:40 Ben: "I feel like you're playing a little bit of a trick…"

    Is he, though, or are you just trying to beg the question, knowing that what he has said so far fulfills your requirement of defining terms, and is in fact the only thing he has done, but you anticipate that you won't be able to rebut the upcoming argument?

  45. When all is said and done here, this is how conversations and debates should go: respectful, rational discourse with no personal attacks and no pandering. Well done.

  46. Ben Shapiro is a fucking idiot. He argues that Christianity and Judaism having a larger number of converts than Jainism. Bro…Christianity and Judaism were forced onto people through horrifically violent means and then indoctrinated onto later generations. It has rarely been a choice to be a Christian or Jew throughout history.

  47. I’m finally in the position to consider once again that religion not only had nothing to do with any improvement in the human condition, but also that Shapiro is an asshole and even his religion only makes us worse.

  48. If you die for your loved one you are dutiful. If you die for your country you are honorable. But if you die for humanity you are a hero.

    If someone can raised up an army who doesn't fear death you got an immortal God behind your cause. This is how the power mongrels use religion to fuck common people over in the past. They were successful because it was done in a period where tribalism was still a thing. But once the language barrier is broken and communication and travel become universal you can easily flip things on its head. Life is unpredictable, and Nature is scary.

    These two is either deliberately talking in circle to make a show or they don't want to get to the simple truth out of fear or incompetence: Humanity has always been capable of governing themselves. We were born with the ability to love our own. But hatred was taught as people become egocentric. And the shrewd people took advantage of the chaos and make a killing out of it.

    It's been like this always.

  49. I am probably the rare liberal who will ever post here but I think it may be tolerated. Shapiro and Harris both flailed at times and were strong at other times. It was actually good to see Harris have an equal on stage. It rarely happens. I think if liberals would watch Shapiro in discussions with other rationalist icons they would have some important insights; there are intelligent conservatives out there who who are truly informed and articulate intellectuals. That has not been our impression lately for which I suspect both sides are guilty. What makes Shapiro such a powerful conservative is that he forces you think. I, naturally, believe Harris' arguments are more valid on many fronts. But Shapiro gave me some powerful insight here. I do not believe anybody has the absolute lock on truth. There are things to learn everywhere. That's a lesson almost everyone can benefit from learning.

  50. There is no god and if there was we killed him
    We are completely worthles in a universe so big as ours, to think that, if there was a god ,he would even care for us would be blasphemous in itself.
    God wouldn't care for us he wouldn't even know what we did and he wouldn't make up rules for us to live by.
    If there is a god he doesn't care for us, the bible is bulls**t
    (English is not my first language if i made mistakes I'm sorry 🙂

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