Anarchast with Jeff Berwick - Attorney Marc J. Victor - The Anarchist Lawyer - Better Call Marc!

hey everybody welcome to another edition of an ER cast your home for anarchy on the internet brought to you by a narc apoco the world's largest anarcho-capitalist conference in the world coming this februari nineteen to twenty first 2016 right here in Acapulco got a great guest on I've had him on once before and it's a real true pleasure and honor to have him back mark victor the attorney for freedom essentially an anarchist attorney who really causes a lot of problems in the status courts and I like that he does a lot of great work and it seems like he's always doing something to try to fight for freedom so mark great to see you again yeah thanks for having me on your show and I am really looking forward to coming to an arc apoco I think it's interesting in your introduction in the show you said it's the world's largest anarcho-capitalist gathering and I certainly don't dispute that but would it be a great world if people did dispute that and people arguing about you know different anarcho-capitalist conferences are how many are you aware of many different anarcho-capitalist conferences around the world not really actually I got on the website it says the world's first and largest anarcho-capitalist conference and we had the first one this year I didn't I couldn't find any that look like a true anarcho-capitalist conference there's a number of smaller sort of group get together sort of things that most of the people are an cab but they don't really they didn't seem to you know make the conference about anarcho-capitalism so in that sense I guess we're the first and largest and probably the only one you know well we ought to say something about that at the conference this year we ought to challenge people in a friendly way it really offered to help them as well to start your own anarcho-capitalist conference yeah absolutely we had a number of people from Europe last year and they were interested in doing that also so yeah we'll see what happens so you've been busy as always I see all the time doing stuff what's your latest I know you were working with Barry Cooper on something he's a pass tanner cast guest and I totally love him he lives here in Mexico he'll be at an arco poco what you been up to lately what kind of trouble are you raising there and I don't even know where to begin article coming out tomorrow on Lew Rockwell com which is I guess sort of the center the anarcho-capitalist world if there is such a thing as the center to the anarcho-capitalist world my article is going to be entitled are you a thug and so I think you can figure out what that's about and that it's been kind of a difficult our article to write because you know started out as am excuse me started out as a three or four page article and there are so many things you want to put into this notion of you know what's a thug who's the thug to bring it into the political realm outside the political realm that it morphed into maybe a little bit longer route an article so well maybe I'll bring this one with me to an arc apoco and I you know I I go to a few articles that were more about peace which I which I'm really a huge fan of but they seemed a little soft then you know I don't ever want to lose my edge so after that I wrote the women should abolish all DUI laws and now are you a thug so I'm going back to my more I guess call it a bit confrontational roots by confrontational in a freedom in peace kind of way yeah absolutely I I know recently you've been quite active in the anti drug wars sort of things I know you've been doing some debates and things like that is that right yeah well you know I'm at the front the front lines of that fight I mean where the rubber hits the road that's the place where the government actually grabs the physical body of another human being and says we're going to now throw you in a cage for having the audacity to controlling your own body and of course we're talking about competent adults here because if you're not confident or you're not an adult that's sort of a different analysis but I had the the fun occasion here in Arizona where the laws are changing ultimately I'm ah I'm very optimistic I think things are moving in the right direction and the drug wars as good as one but we're in this stage right here in Arizona where it's sort of quasi-legal you know we've got this medical marijuana card so I had a guy who I was in court with and he was being put on probation for basically having a small amount of marijuana but since the case started he had obtained a medical marijuana card I had pointed out to the judge how ridiculous i suggest you ready to put this guy on probation and as soon as he gets home he's gonna legally smoke my very the very crime you're putting him on probation for and you can't even stop him from smoking marijuana well he's on probation for the crime of smoking marijuana did you think there's something wrong with this that's the that's the environment where it out here yeah what are the responses from a judge to that obvious rational logic it's really fun because I stand up there in court and I go off and you say all these sort of inflammatory things over and over and over and over again and usually the judge will just sit there and listen listen listen and then as soon as I finish they just move on to something else as if I had said absolutely nothing every once in a while I get a judge who actually you know agrees and once the play ball I had one judge the judge God's field here in Arizona was on the superior court since retard used to say things to me like this you would say you mean mark you mean like the same as the war on alcohol the same as prohibition you mean when we had cartels and games and all violence and all of that I would say yes judge just like that and we kind of go back and forth every once in a while a judge will interrupt and throw in some status type of a comment which of course I'm happy to debate on the record in court but not very often usually I don't know if it's because they just want to move the calendar along because they're buried under the crushing volume of drug war cases or if they actually agree but they feel restrained from saying anything because they're wearing a black role I don't really know but most of the time they don't want to engage on that the the county attorney Bill Montgomery he's the elected county attorney here in Maricopa County he's engaged with me at a couple of times and we've debated the drug war and this is on the internet also a couple other one other person set leaps and we had a really fun debate my debates are never about you know marijuana is not dangerous or anything like that I may mention that but my debates are always on freedom and the right to control your own body that's the real that's the real issue here is that that's a really fun debate I'm getting to the point where it's kind of like are we still talking about whether people can smoke marijuana the people dying from prescription drugs all over the place and all of the other real serious health problems that we're talking about marijuana where we don't have any confirmed deaths in the history of mankind it's just it's insanity I always feel like I want to start the debate with are we really still talking about this I'm kind of frustrated with the debate you know it's it just seems ridiculous to me but we need to have it and we need to make it not about whether it's good for you or bad for you but we need to completely make it about the freedom question itself ownership yeah absolutely so I saw you or I don't know what you're doing with Barry Cooper but I saw something about you two are working together for people don't know Barry Cooper was a past diner cast cast used to be a past a narcotics officer who one day tried weed and then quit his job and started busting cops and he was busting so many that he had to flee the country because the government was constantly putting him in a cage interesting guy he'll be at an ARCA polka so how long have you known Barry what are you doing with him I've no Barry a long time they actually met on a drug case where I had decided to employ him as an expert witness about as i like to say fluffy the dark and i always like to say baron sort of confirm this for me that if fluffy shows up you don't have any Fourth Amendment rights and berries really a fantastic expert witness in terms of understanding the nature of these dogs and really how any handler can get any dog to alert forgetting about the fact that you don't even know what an alert is they say he learned he alerted but but actually you could get them to do a real alert for almost any reason at all this you know anybody who's had a dog knows that there are things that you can do with the god little cues that the dog is familiar with to get him to sit and everybody who has a dog knows that a dog will do anything for a treat right i mean their dogs they like hot dogs and Kentucky Fried Chicken it if you have that the dog will do anything crazy so I used them as an expert witness on a case which I really worked out great for us and we got our way and had a good resolution and then Barry and I became friends and he's really a fantastic human being he's the kind of guy which we could just put him on a copy machine and start xeroxing people because he's a guy who was big enough to say you know what I've been on the wrong side of this thing for a long time and now that I had my paradigm shift and I understand I'm going to take an active role and try to I would say make them eggs for my past sins and he's certainly done that and so um Barry has a website i think it's never get busted org and he someone hit him up with the case where there was a legal grow in california and part of it was on the legal side and part of it was in an illegal area and so the the king's men came in and decided to destroy the entire grow even though they were allegedly told in advance hey this section here this is a perfectly legal grow under California law and they didn't care they just certainly went ahead and impose their own personal biases and views and destroyed what may be a million dollars worth of property of another person and so um Barry referred the case over to us and we like the case and so I think we ought we ought to proceed on with this case and we are just like any other case where a thug destroys the property of another person that the thug doesn't like their property oh well so sad life's changing for the thug and we're becoming more civilized and more evolved and I look I admit this is a slow process not as quickly as I would bike but I think we're moving in the right direction overall yeah you've mentioned that a few times that you think it is moving the right direction that's good to hear i haven't been noticing by all the police brutality videos and all the all my friends getting arrested in the US even adam kokesh i had to fly back to Washington DC yesterday for a parole hearing I already got out so that's good so so you're on the front lines and you actually think things are slowly moving in a better direction I do I do for lots of reasons and first off you know the thing about the police video issue it's true we see lots of videos on police brutality but and this isn't necessarily evidence that police brutality is getting worse this is just more evidence of evidence about police brutality right so cameras are more available and things are being recorded now I don't know if police brutality is on the increase or not I suspect it may be just because we've had so many decades now of the drug war out of control and there are a few things maybe nothing I can think of that more promotes a violent society than this you know imagine imagine taking a huge industry any industry take a huge billion-dollar industry multibillion-dollar it is you put the whole thing in the black market and think there's not going to be a violence surrounding the purchase sale and transportation of the item that just is ridiculous but oh this is a good example people not just in the United States people around the world are figuring out that this drug war thing was really dumb and although there are still a lot of holdouts out there but like anything else things change when people's hearts and minds change and i think they are starting to change and lots of different area yeah part of it i think is that governments are going bankrupt around the world so looking at the drug market as being something that they can legalize and then regulate and tax so but any case it's still better than having it just in the black market or what I call the free market as the prohibition of alcohol showed the Chicago even more than today which is hard to leave was filled with just headless bodies and gangsters because of the prohibition of alcohol you'd think people would learn but hopefully they'll be waking up soon yeah we're slow learners but you know the I also note this issue on a gay marriage and rights for gay people is really exactly the same question as the marijuana question right i mean who's in charge of your body you or somebody else and you know in both cases and resolve the same way and I think that be that both of these issues are around the same time evolving in the right direction I think speaks to I think we call that the Volks guys back in a not philosophy psychology class sort of this collective conscious of the people we're not going to get everybody but we need to get a higher percentage of people whose hearts and minds are sort of in the game for a free society I mean I think we are moving in that direction I'm not saying there are not setbacks I'm not saying that things are moving rapidly I'm not even saying that in my lifetime we're going to be living in a free society what I am saying is on sort of the macro scale right we're moving in the right direction on for lots of different reasons and I'm optimistic and I'm trying to do everything I can to push the bus in the direction of peace and freedom as quickly as possible and i know you are too and I thank you for that I don't thank you and I thank you yeah it's a moving in the right direction but slowly of course the next big step is just to get the government completely out of anything to do with anything clients marriages taxes every single thing that they're involved in but we just got to take it a step at a time and do what we're doing and just keep fighting the system essentially let me try to annoy you do a little bit Jeff because I would say it slightly differently and I intend to say this down there during my target the enemy here is not really government the enemy is coercion I like to focus in on what the problem is I want to rid the world of coercion to the extent we can everywhere all the time and I'm not trying to be an apologist for government but you know there might be some things that sort of organized society can do collectively as long as it doesn't involve coercion like for example having a real principal-agent relationship where the agent is exercising rights of the principal like for example self-defense I don't have any issue with that I don't know many sort of libertarian anarchist types who have issues with that were skeptical about whether that can be done on a large scale and I certainly insensitive to that issue but i'd like to try to be a little more precise in the way we stated i like to say our enemy here is is the initiation of force or coercion yeah absolutely i just used the word government because that's the sort of the biggest manifestation of coercion on the planet today so it's easy this to pick them but I agree with you that's the real issue and really government is the word is governed control meant mind and it really is Larkin rose he'll be speaking as an arc apoco says it's a superstition it's just an idea that enough people believe in to cause all kinds of crazy horrible violent acts yeah that's true and you know we're not exactly against control and governing because we all want to be iron-fisted dictators of our own property right i mean so it's this is why the word in our keys is Miss perceived by most i think i like the word I use it sometimes depending on my audience in the reaction i want to get sometimes i use the word autarky which i think better describes sort of self-rule type of a situation but i think that we need to focus a little bit more on what i would call outreach and try to bring a few more people be a little bit more big tent which is why you know i'm a non-voter I don't flow even when i ran for US Senate and i was on the ballot myself I didn't vote for myself and I'm I didn't vote for Ron Paul and I'm not going to vote for Rand Paul but with that said i am gonna i am co-sponsoring a fundraiser for rent because i don't think there's a central plan for freedom and I and I think rent is for freedom despite some of the things that he said over the over the years really and I think he's doing what he can to push the bus in the right direction I think his dad did a lot to push to win hearts and minds for freedom so even though it's not an arena that I like to plan I think as people who support freedom different things read differently for different people and whatever gets more people on the bus for a free society unhappy yeah I agree completely that's why I supported the Libertarian Party of Canada this last October and throughout the summer of been like I got a lot of flak from anarchists hey you can't have anything to do with the system it's like no we that they're giving you a soapbox let's go stand on it and you know as well as anyone that's up being a lawyer that it's great to have that soapbox give me a big microphone have to make a speech to more people yeah so so we're a total agreement I mean we can use it like a tool but I think the important point to always state as a change doesn't come through the political process change comes when enough people change their hearts and minds right i mean because sometimes the government scurries up behind the change it tries to take write it like for example this drug war a–they or is take the slavery issue right slavery ended when enough people change their hearts and minds about slavery and then the government jumped in and started you know making laws against slavery and even the Civil Rights Acts that was possible because people change their hearts and minds so the Revolutionary War wasn't an act of legislation really it was a within actually they said it wasn't really even the physical violence of the war that was the revolution it was the change in thought and that's what I'm after I think that is what you get to real change because as you know Jeff we could install a doug casey as president of the united states if we wanted to a mutual friend of ours who neither one of us have any thoughts about being a real hardcore pro-freedom pro-peace kind of guy and he wouldn't be able to get anything done not for very long because not enough people have really changed their hearts and minds but but on the day Doug Casey could get elected president of the United States that's the day we don't need that case you can run for president things absolutely it is that's exactly right in my opinion on government it just follows as we change hearts and minds and not to use the george bush hardened some mines where you kill like a million iraqis but actually telling people you know what weird it's going on what these things are much better for them it's much better for everyone and you do a lot of that and so i really appreciate your work and of course at an arc apoco so many people so many great people amanda wretch wits i don't know if you know her she's from Arizona she was on an ER cast recently she'll be speaking of narco poco and she had some really good thoughts on how the sort of the libertarian or anarchist community all attack anyone who's trying to do anything if they find just one little thing they attack them and that would include even people like Rand Paul who Judge Napolitano has been on an ER cast and said that he thinks that Rand Paul is a libertarian pretty much an anarchist he said ron paul's an anarchist so just because they're trying to use the system and get these messages out there we shouldn't be attacking them we should find other people to attack if we're going to attack anyone I couldn't agree more with that statement you know and i think a way to express it his way that Butler Schaefer recently expressed it at the mesa society event we had a we had a veces Mises Institute event here in Arizona in fact I was interesting I was tasked to give a five-minute speech on what's wrong with the justice system and how to improve it in five minutes how to fix the justice system in five minutes here it goes I got six things I want to say number one we're not going to fix anything anywhere at any time until we can win more hearts and minds period that's the only way to get freedom we got to win more hearts and minds it doesn't matter who's elected it doesn't matter what the Constitution says doesn't matter what the Supreme Court interprets do we have enough people who understand the ideas of Liberty that's where we need to be focusing if we got enough we'll have freedom if we don't like right now we'll have tyranny so that's where we need to focus about fixing the justice system really and everything else but number two you can't fix the justice system until you fix the law period it doesn't matter we got to get rid of all victimless crimes we got think of this as think of this as two separate areas of the justice system we've got procedure which is how do we sort of process cases through the system then we've got the substantive law the procedures not that bad if you made me the king of the procedure there's a lot of things I'd change but it's really not that terrible we do a pretty decent job not perfect but pretty decent at figuring out who's really guilty and who's not guilty which really just means the state hasn't proven their case but it doesn't matter if what they're guilty of is a bunch of stupid that shouldn't be against the law in the first place so so fixing the effectiveness of the system doesn't matter it is completely irrelevant until we can fix the law number three what I'll call jury education here's what i mean by this the jury was supposed to be the final check on state power just had a buddy of mine who's a lawyer in Italy who I met because of Lew Rockwell he read one of my articles in Italy and he contacted me and said hey Mark I'm a lawyer in Italy he came to visit me a couple of weeks ago and we talked about the system they don't have jury trials there could be a big problem what I love about the jury trial is when I'm standing up there we've gone through a lot of aggravation by the time I stand up and closing argument in front of the jury but when I'm standing there it's just me and the jurors it's me and the rest of the people's representatives they should be able to do whatever they want to do we should be able to get the bureaucrats in the tyrannical big government nuts out of the way it's just me in them I need to be able to tell them you can judge the law as well as the facts I need to be able to stand there say ladies and gentlemen even if you think the state's proven the case the laws screwed up who cares if this guy really had marijuana find him not guilty but in addition to that we need to be able to tell them what the punishment is they don't get to know what the punishment is could you imagine being a juror and coming back with a guilty verdict thinking that this guy is going to get probation when because of our crazy ridiculous punishments that we have now all throughout the United States and Arizona is one of the worst states on this they don't understand that they just completely ruin somebody's life people make decisions based differently on what they understand to be the gravity of the decision as judge Kozinski pointed out in an article recently on this very point we think differently we invest a different amounts of time in whether we should go to Starbucks or some other coffee house in the morning versus whether we're going to buy a new house right shouldn't I be able to tell them ladies and gentlemen of the jury if you come back with a guilty my guys got to do 20 years think about it carefully I can't say one peep about that we got to educate the jury's number four we need to abolish mandatory minimum sentences I can't go to trial in a lot of these cases I talked to the gun guys all the time and the gun guys give me these scenarios and they say you know mark what if this that the next thing happens and then I shoot somebody in my house maybe it's a good shooting but if it's close they're never going to get to trial because the situation is going to be such that if the jury comes back and says that they acted reasonably they leave with me we go they buy me dinner if the jury comes back and says no you were unreasonable then they go away for maybe 20 years none of you will take that chance all of you will walk in and plead guilty to a lesser charge because you're stuck with the mandatory minimum if you lose we need to be able to give judges the power to say you know what even though the person has been found guilty and it could be first-degree murder still there needs to be an option for probation so people are allowed to send cases in front of the jury I can't tell you how many cases I would have loved to have tried in front of a jury that I can't because the risk is too high number five we got to reduce caseloads the crushing volume of the caseloads in our system there's an article today in the Washington Post about this and they named Maricopa County and they have identified here some of the worst death penalty lawyers ever you would think that in a death penalty case would have tons of resources and tons of attention I've done lots of death penalty cases i just i'm finishing one up now we have such crushing caseloads that these public defenders and even prosecutors just don't have enough time and that's never going to be reduced until the drug war ends period a huge lack of resources and then finally number six because I know I'm running out of time we got a we got to get real about the Commerce Clause in about federal jurisdiction we got this monstrosity of a federal justice system I can remember talking to a federal prosecutor recently and I said I said is there anything you think you don't have jurisdiction over and we talked about lots of things and I said what about a DUI case do you think the federal government could prosecute DUI cases it's as well cars moving interstate commerce and all the parts are made and he's absolutely right this is a slam dunk win for the federal government in terms of a jurisdiction there is nothing that I can think of that the federal government couldn't exercise its jurisdiction over and so we got to get all these crimes out of the federal government we got a we got to get the Commerce Clause and I know I here I can hear Butler over there because he taught me about the Commerce Clause he's going to give me a hard time when I meet with them we got to do something different with the Commerce Clause because it reaches everything it's an infinite source of endless federal jurisdiction until we fix that there's no fix in the federal justice system anyways let's just focus on winning hearts and minds whatever it is you do if you're right if you speak if you're if you're Lou and you got a big big website out there I don't even care anymore if you run for office I don't even care if you run as a Republican in your Rand Paul more power to him I don't know if you got my talk on that but one of the things that Butler said there is you know and I don't think he originated he may have got this from I think maybe Murray Rothbard but now think of it as a bus moving in the direction of freedom and some people want to get off earlier and other people want to go all the way to the end that's fine given that we're in the midst of a tyrannical police state right now let's just start getting moved moving in the right direction and I generally agree with that I guess maybe I've softened up just a tad in terms of my thought process there because I used to be in the other camp where I was much more of the you know oh my god you want to reduce taxes and don't you know taxes or theft we need to abolish taxes and of course that's true but frankly I'd rather pay lower taxes i prefer no taxes but i'd rather have I'd rather have the thief steal lesson of my money than more of my money and as soon as he steals less let's try to convince of this Dale even less or maybe even not to steal at all so I'm not going to get too upset with people I generally like to have two different discussions with people one discussion of where do you want it where do you want the bus to go to I think the bus ought to go all the way to the end and have a free society and see if we can get some agreement there then I have the secondary discussion given that we're in a tyrannical police state right now what types of things would you like to do to try to move the bus in that direction and people can disagree on that point and I'm not arrogant enough to think I've got all the answers on that let's have people just like in a free market right let's have a free market of libertarian ideas and let's some people right and some speak and some run for public office and some can be Republican some can be Democrats if you want to run as a socialist as long as your arts really a libertarian I don't care I'll support you yeah absolutely and you're gonna be a narc apoco and you'll be talking to a lot of people there which would be great you're very personable person and you know this i think what i heard about a narc apoco for this year the first one is that most people liked it a lot and i'm not just saying that that's what i heard that pretty much everyone really liked a lot but this year they want even more sort of positivity more less talking about what's wrong with the state and more on how we fix it and things like that and it sounds like you're on the same page that's exactly where I'm at and I am intending to give a talk that I tries to make the tent a little bit bigger and really I want I want people to not just focus and you know we beat the dead horse about freedom freedom freedom for you man I'm I'm okay with that because I love freedom so much but you know to be freedom is just a necessary precondition to peace and so I want to talk a little bit about Peavy if you can't have peace if people are coercing people all over the place so why don't we can't even talk about peace yet until we get people convinced on freedom but in Acapulco I'm expecting you as a place where people will be generally convinced about freedom so I want to push things a little bit and maybe talk about peace I may even throw out the big l word because I think peace is a precondition to love and I think love is an important point to and I may say something about that I don't know it at risk of being yelled at or being considered a softy or something like that I I'm okay with that at this point in my life I think there are some things that are important enough we should just talk about them and move forward but but I think where the real peace activists because we're moving towards a society without coercion and then I want to try to get another aspect involved where we actually try to be friendly with people we try to instill i can get to freedom and still hate my neighbor right i can still give them the finger when I come out with Mauricio and we're still we're still having freedom as long as we're not forcing each other but but I like to get somewhere beyond and I'd like to get outside my front door and say hello to my neighbor and have him say hello to me and have a relationship with him it because at the end of the day we're only on this planet for a real short blip in time we're very very extraordinarily lucky that we are the part of the universe that is animated and conscious and we're here for a short period of time that we know each other is even more spectacular and what are we doing fighting with each other on this brief period of time on the planet just outrageous I mean we should be at least hall rent of other people's peaceful views yeah absolutely just for people who don't know Mark is one of the best speech makers I've ever seen I think it's probably one of the reasons he's a good lawyer as well so I really looking forward to your speech mark and don't worry I don't think you're going to get any booze when you bring up that piece is related to love and and freedom is related to love there's a lot of speakers who that's essentially what they focus on including max egan and zen gardener there's a whole bunch of people gravitating towards this sort of freedom idea now which it's shocking to me that this didn't people didn't have this idea before apparently but we're getting all kinds of people on the others really is a lot of more people talking about you know we need to improve this planet we need to be kinder to our neighbors we need to connect more with people and that's one of the things that i've really noticed in the anarchist community in the past not as much now but definitely the past is very divisive they'll try to find any reason to create a debate because most of them are quite good debaters they're sort of similar to you they are smart and logical and rational and so they can pick out if someone said something slightly wrong but I wouldn't focus on you know hammering that into somebody I'd focus more on spreading these ideas and trying to create the better world yeah you know I think at the Mises Institute event father schäfer had noted that hey back in the 60s and early 70s when they were sort of starting with this word libertarian the group of libertarians in the in the united states was so small that when somebody traveled to another state was go look up Joe he's the libertarian houghton you know California wherever oh we got a libertarian there yes we do and it's really spectacular how people interested in the freedom movement have sort of thought to this that's because we make sense and it's right in once they start thinking about things in a different paradigm and you know I try to put things into the moral world bucket in the legal world bucket and people confuse those two buckets right we can completely disagree on issues of morality and we should and we should talk about it but if we can agree that only the very small thin strictly construed issues of issues which are when we get to an issue of a trespass where we get to a force or fraud those are the things that should be illegal and the other stuff is fun to talk about and we don't necessarily have to force our moral opinions on other people I will tell you this but I'll give you a little preview of something else that I've been troubled by lately I don't know if you read an article that I wrote entitled the immorality of eating steak in why I acknowledge your right to eat it that was a probably the most complex article I've written because I just personally you know as a as a big lifelong meat-eater until the last couple of years and I mean a crazy meteorite if I didn't have some kind of meat and every meal for decades I didn't feel like I was eating I just sort of swept under the rug this non initiation of force principle in regards to animals and say wow they're animals it doesn't really apply to them and that was the end of my analysis but once I gave up strictly for health reasons eating animals I then was able I think to think about this issue in a sort of an unbiased way and say well is it okay I mean can I aggress against the bonobo monkey and still call myself a man of peace and a non initiator of force these types of issues and it's actually I found it to be a very very difficult question at the end of the day I think it's worthy of our discussion it's something we ought to talk about the end I think it's an evolving issue I think that no we don't get to aggress against bonobo monkeys and we saw we saw a similar reaction with the world remember when that guy from the United States shot Cecil the lion there was an outrage people don't get outraged when you know rats are agresta pond and maybe rightly so but but things are drifting in a certain direction in terms of that and I think it's a difficult question difficult enough that I think we treat it as a moral issue which is why I to me I've concluded that aggressing against animals most animals is at least tomorrow but I'm not prepared to say that we should stick this in the legal world because reasonable Minds honestly trying to apply the non-aggression principle really can disagree on this issue I feel the same way about the abortion question that's our issue as well reasonable people honestly trying to apply the non-aggression principle can struggle with that and come down on either side and as long as that's the case I think we ought to agree to treat it as a moral issue unless and until we get enough people who are saying look and we think this is indeed a violation of the non-aggression principle then maybe we sort of move it into the legal world but we got to be really sure before we put something in the legal world we gotta we have to allow for other people rational people to have their sort of freedom of conscience to decide hey this really isn't an aggression against you know a non aggressor so I think it should be a moral issue and that that paper got me a lot of aggravation from objectivists who I find sometimes her may be among the most aggravating of all groups of people to argue with because and I'm not saying all Objectivist but the level of hubris from the Objectivist community sometimes is unbearable yeah interesting on the vegetarian thing I was a vegetarian on a vegan for about seven years when I was in my 20s and I was just super unhealthy because i don't like I didn't like vegetables so I all I need is like chips and spaghetti with like margarine or something or tomato sauce and I was just kind of fat and out of shape and didn't have much energy so I went back to me but I've always said that I think at some point each of us has to look at that as an issue if you want true a non-aggression on this planet and it's something that I've said before and I'll say again that I kind of feel bad I eat meat I do I want to try to work towards eating less meat and maybe no meet again I do try to eat meat that I'm fairly sure came from a fairly decent place so that if the animals are treated well and here in Mexico it's all local mostly organic sort of farms so it's a lot better than what's in the in a lot of places including the US with the factory farming is just a heinous a lot of the libertarians who are more of the deep thinker types whether you eat meat or not you're at least bothered by this and and you know I still eat some fish now and then and I never time I do I feel bad about it i'm wondering if i if i can honestly call myself a man of peace and I you know especially when you see those videos of the factory farms this sort of Auschwitz for animals and I'm scratching my head and I'm saying to myself here i am this great man of peace and freedom and i'm supporting this horrible auschwitz 44 really sentient beings i feel obviously differently about mosquitoes but figure know where the line is between the two is a difficult question did you see my article on this point i saw the article I thought oh that's going to be interesting but I never got around to reading ahead I'll send it to you know I just love to get your take on it got was probably more controversial than any other article I've ever written and the Objectivists are still upset about it what I could distill from the objective I got two major objections 1 is 0 the Lord said I should take dominion over all the animals so I can do whatever I want and then the objective is to say the ends willing is a special kind of reasoning machine and because of that reason animals no reason like we do and therefore we can do whatever we want to them satisfying to me you know I think that I suffered from a lot of bias on this because I love to eat my cheese burgers but um you know if you really sit down and try to grapple with this thing and you'll see I did I I came up with my article I put mark Victor's subjective and knowing that I might change my mind tomorrow about it but it was my attempt to try to figure out where the line is it I think it matters what the purpose of killing is too right I mean you can kill a human being if it's self-defense so I think there's a difference between sort of hunting killing for fun and self-defense it's gonna boil all back down but anyways take a look at it I was thinking about bringing it up and hoping to generate some controversy there i really want to want to get people energized and thinking about some of the tougher issues because there's a lot of issues that libertarians disagree on that are very difficult questions and i am i'm sort of aiming for this of simplistic libertarian thinks we're going to all be living in Utopia if we can get a free society oh yeah the no it's very it's not black and white at all lot of issues as far as the not killing animals yeah if I have like a snake I live in a tropical area if I have a snake or a big spider in the house like a scorpion I usually try not to kill it I tried to just throw it out far away from the house somewhere I think if I had to kill my own beef or pork or chicken there'd be no way i would do it I think it's just because it's so removed and it tastes so good and I'm sorry Otto pond it that it is very difficult to sort of give up but I have given it up many times and I think yeah I think I've always said first let's free the humans then we'll work on the animals because once we free the humans it'll be pretty easy after that I think yeah that's one way of putting it i don't know i i i just wonder you know I felt just a little hypocritical when I thought about the thing presenting myself as a man of peace and a boring all violence and Here I am supporting this stuff and I felt like you it's one thing when you're taking out of the plastic wrap and the styrofoam and it just looks like this hunk of meat it's another thing when you're watching the video about you know hit him in the head and chopping his head off and stuff like that and I think man I don't want anything to do with that and then i thought i might just been brainwashed here because I'm so far removed you know from the thing am I really in the matrix here so I don't know but interesting questions I don't I don't pretend to have the right answer on any of this stuff I just raised it as a difficult question you know it's one of those things to fight to the extent i resolve but at all i say well different communities might feel differently about it at the end of the day who might have figure out where the light is on this clown I don't know yeah absolutely no these are all interesting topics that need to be talked about but yeah I agree with you in general on the vegetarian sort of thing I think markers is upward Zuckerberg one of the only things I saw him do that I thought was quite impressive was he said that he wants to kill a chicken with his own hands which he knows you know he can argue about how impressive that is but because he thinks if you're going to eat them you should have to at least once go through the process of guff killing it so you can at least see what you're here doing I thought I was interesting yeah I think if people had to do that or participate in if they might feel differently about the actions you know just something inside this stuff it that's where it comes from right all this stuff comes from inside and I think if you look at it and see if this just you're here less than human if you look at this stuff and you think oh this is ok I'm happy about this I I don't know it seems pretty up so yeah these are all the issues and interesting we'll be talking about all these in Acapulco I don't want to keep it too long cuz I know you're very busy freeing a lot of people who have been kidnapped and putting cages for having plants in their pockets or trying to defend themselves so if you want mark you always very have a lot to say I finished up with anything you want to talk about and let people know where they can find out more information on you because for anarchists out there what you want if you do get kidnapped and put in a cage is an anarchist lawyer who totally understands what's you know what you understand as well and actually I sort of used March services once for a friend who got kidnapped for drinks spilling a drink in Las Vegas so yeah let people know about where they can find out more about you as well I'm super easy to get a hold of I mean you could imagine my website for 20 years has been attorney for freedom calm so what else could I could it possibly be you can also put Mark Victor right into Google and they'll be all of the things that come up so I'm very easy to get a hold of it and that's fine but you know really I love being a lawyer and I love fighting the government and defending people against the government but really I'm a freedom activist above and beyond that I my calling in life is to try to leave the plan in a better place than I found it and to do my part as as a good sort of animated portion of the universe to try to improve things for future animated portions of the universe that that are going to be following and I think that's what you're doing as well in so you know I constantly falling I'm easy to get to volunteer my time to try to reach people you know this is interesting for me to talk to in our co capitalist but I really like to talk to the socialist I would love to be invited to come talk to you know the Bernie Sanders convention or something like that about why he's wrong and why we should have a free society and all this other stuff so maybe there'll be some discussion of how we outreach to these other groups and I don't know there's a lot of fun things we could do with this I'm really happy you organized it I'm especially happy you put it in acapulco so I get a good excuse to take some time off work and hit down there I'm very much looking forward to seeing yeah me too so just a few months away now so if you don't know in acapulco just go to narc apoco calm kind of hard to spell if you're listening on the radio aana rch apu lco calm and that's uh Bree nineteen to twenty first a lot of great people like the freedom fighter lawyer for freedom mark victor will be there and all these sort of conversations that we've been having will be had on the beach here in mexico in a what i consider to be a much for your place so if you like this video like subscribe share down below and that's it for an our cast your home for anarchy on the internet peace love and anarchy well I suppose that it's a matter of degree but I have a couple of the first principles that I expect to you Jeff and most people watching or listening to us now what except and that is first that the individual is greater than the state individual has an immortal soul and free will the state is merely an aggregation of people trying to live that somebody else's expense with a monopoly on force theoretically it's here today and gone tomorrow well we were running we were running too because my son didn't we did all this Micah autistic son did not have a passport that's why we went in a cruise ship we wanted to get out of country but to fly you need to pass for the dry but cross borders you need a passport with a cruise ship you don't need a passport I think they're just selling that yeah I'm sure they will so from alpha protocol Mexico this is NR cast

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