#35 China's Fight Against Communism | Tiananmen Square Massacre 30th Anniversary | China Unscripted



on this episode of China and scripted our trip to the 2019 Oslo Freedom Forum the socialist model of star trek and 30 years after the Tiananmen Square massacre what's the future of China I will go to China scripted I'm Chris Chappell I'm Shelley Jeong you know Macanese day and we're recording this in Oslo Norway after having just been to the Oslo Freedom Forum why don't you say what that is Shelley well I guess it is the Davos of human rights and what is the Davos Chris you don't know what Davos is I'm playing devil's advocate for those who don't know okay so let's say it's a conference where human rights activists from around the world come and meet each other and talk and listen to speeches about different human rights situations and other countries and all the activists are there kind of fighting for freedom and against tyranny and authoritarianism in their own ways and while that may sound potentially horribly depressing and it kind of is at times it's actually a very uplifting conference I find there's also a number of celebrities I mean one of the people you Chris Chappell yeah obviously I mean they jump in there and yeah and Shelley John there's no way that I'm a celebrity but to keep going but you know one of the people you interviewed was Denis Howe who's a pretty famous kanto pop singer yeah she's fantastic super friendly and she was like really famous in Asia and then when the Hong Kong umbrella movement happened she supported the students and she got political yeah how dare she support freedom and she basically got banned from performing in China and you know she also media accounts in China were did yeah and I think in a lot of ways she accidentally became a dissident like it wasn't that she wanted to become a dissident it's just that that she was just doing what she thought was right and then the Chinese Communist Party was like you can't do that and so but she's she's very well known in the past you've interviewed Mike coy who's like the Lady Gaga of Vietnam mm-hmm so yeah there's some pretty well-known people at thousands of Freedom Forum we did we did a lot of interviews actually and for those of you listening if you watching China uncensored over the next few weeks we'll release some of the interviews we did on our channel China uncensored people like a activist from Nicaragua or from Cameroon people who talk about how the Chinese Communist Party is propping up the authoritarian regime in their countries we also talked to a reporter from Burma / Myanmar depending on how you know that country about you know how China is have been a big influence there for years and also pretty interesting I think is we've interviewed our first former ambassador of North Korea first but hopefully not the last yes we interviewed ambassador tae-yong Ho who was the deputy ambassador in London for North Korea and then he defected in 2016 and he's become a pretty outspoken I guess voice against a critic when you call it you know I'd say so and he you know was it at this event there have been people who have been targeted let's say by some authoritarian regimes attempted assassinations would you say yes we've met well yeah the other night we met that Russian dissident who has was poisoned not once but twice by putin's henchmen yes vladimir caramel something like that and yes my aggression is terrible but I think he's you know that's not made him be less outspoken at all but also the Nicaraguan activist we interviewed yeah actually reminds me of just how much security there was this event they were over there were definitely bodyguards everywhere particularly for the North Korean ambassador former North Korean ambassador in fact at one point like after he gave a speech so this is the guy who lived his life needing to constantly be taking precautions against getting assassinated he's like he might be like number one on the Kim Jong Un's hit list and so well now that his brother's dead no his brother is dead he's moved up the list yeah but yeah one day after he gave a speech he like walked outside and like this Norwegian guy threw a milkshake at him yeah I think it was that he had given a pretty prominent interview to one of the largest newspapers in Norway and so people had bread that would know that he was at the Oslo Freedom Forum and some guy came and threw a milkshake like why a milkshake oh I think it's because of the Nigel Faraj thing wait what's that Nigel Faraj the brexit guy yeah somebody threw a milkshake at him so this was an act of imitating that well I can't imagine that it was like two people independently thought the best of all means of political protest was throwing a milkshake on a person it's weird I mean it seems like a waste of a perfectly good milkshake unless unless it was one of those really lousy milkshakes we got at that burger place the other night max okay I would throw one of those you you have just on air threatened to throw a bad milkshake no I didn't I didn't specify the target I just said I might throw one in the trash in the trash is what I meant specifically I'm also reminded of there's this video of George W Bush speaking and someone throws a shoe at Bush oh right I forgot dunks and then the guy throws under seal bush duck for that one and then the security guards come to tackle a guy I yeah I feel like this was kind of before it was this prior to YouTube or like in the early days of YouTube it was kind of at a time when like it kind of got famous but you know watch videos online who remembers RealPlayer oh man yeah so back in the day when I first started doing television reporting our channel would upload videos to real player like dot RM and the quality was so bad but it seemed like it was the coolest thing ever to actually get your your broadcast content on the internet I mean I remember what YouTube videos looked like in the beginning and they were trash like green pixels yeah you know who's that spoke so it didn't really seem at the time that this was gonna be like the predominant medium for video number two search engine in the world and you know what we would then build our careers on yes yes that that did come as a surprise damn it yeah definitely I feel like we got a little off topic now so we're talking about the the interview with Kay jung-ho which is the North Korean ambassador who defected from his post as a North Korean ambassador deputy deputy and boy did you have some interesting stuff to say about North Korea yeah I think I think people will like that interview and speaking of North Korea we also had a chance to interview Robert Kelley and more famously known as far Cali no no we're not no no listen it was difficult to do some research on him because if you type Robert Kelley you get our Kelley first so Robert Kelley is more famously known as Shelley let's not talk about our Kelley anymore for obvious reasons is that what's happening now what are obvious reasons you don't know about how he had for sex with underage girls yeah about that then you keep them in the basement or something all right so this this other guy we interviewed who is not our Kelly more famously known as BBC dad yeah the guy who was who's an expert and a professor who talks about South Korea and North Korea and his beautiful family interrupted his live interview with the BBC but he came on our podcast which I should be the next podcast out next week that's correct that's correct and that'll be the first one that we have ever videos videotaped and so you can watch that on our YouTube channel or listen to it on our other platforms I had no idea what to do with my hands yeah it was a bit weird doing it on the video yeah but also the Oslo Freedom Forum gave us a room to do our interviews and stuff so it was it was really firstly very awesome of the Freedom Forum to arrange that yeah they've been super supportive and actually if you want to know more about the Oslo Freedom Forum I would recommend checking out Shelley's Twitter account because she live tweeted the whole thing ouch the whole thing not it was the whole thing was it was insane the things she was doing I do have to say that I was pretty exhausted I mean for me it was kind of like taking notes in public in a way because it helps me focus on what they're saying and all the stuff but and not like let my want mind wander but it was pretty intense it's it's always a great kind of experience and that I think we talked about this last year on our podcast where it feels great and terrible at the same time because there are these people doing these these inspiring things but then you realize how much of the world is under authoritarianism and you're like oh don't you have a president he's more of a dictator oh you have a king well he's more of a dictator yeah hey Shelly what's your Twitter account so people oh yeah it's at shell Jong so it's at sh e lzh ang yeah but you know speaking of yeah I think he I was a free inform did a good job of really painting the picture of just like how much authoritarianism there still is in the world today and in particular they made a focus of focusing on they made a focus of focusing we're not jet lagged anymore I think we're just exhausted no we were jet lagged and then didn't rest so what what do you get when you add exhaustion on top of jet lag well I don't read them the cast ever are you still waking up at 3:00 a.m. I mean I think we've transitioned over it rises at 3:00 a.m. that's true that's sure but you know that they were saying at the Freedom Forum that 53 percent of the world's people live under authoritarian regimes so yeah if you're living in a free country you are in the minority but you're saying that there was a specific focus which was China they really focused a lot on China as the world's largest authoritarian regime yeah and to be fair for the last this is the 11th year they've done it and ever since they started in 2008 they have talked about China there's been a serious threat so they're like you know that it's not like suddenly they're talking about China but the differences this year it was like right in the beginning they had Denise Howe the Hong Kong can't a pop singer actually first they had the first one was Nuri Churchill Churchill who we had interviewed on China uncensored and also on our podcast back last summer well when we went down to DC if people are looking for those episodes it was actually I think in September or October that we published them okay but but yeah so we so we had him on and then he he's a leader of the like we got your diaspora yeah and he's uh he's really done a great job of articulating just what the Weir's in China are facing and just to have him and also the then Denise Howe up front in Oslo Freedom Forum really spoke to I think the the guts that the people running the Oslo Freedom Forum half in terms of standing up to the Chinese Communist Party because even some human rights organizations are a little bit hesitant about really calling out the Chinese Communist Party but also Freedom Forum is like yeah we're gonna do it and we're gonna do it right in the beginning I think also what's interesting about the Oslo Freedom Forum is their emphasis is on you know promoting freedom and fighting authoritarianism around the world so that is a big umbrella in a lot of ways so it's like a big tent you have people from all different working on all different things from like child brides and Malawi – you know women's rights in Saudi Arabia – you know like in these like doping in Russia oh right there was that the director of Icarus the Netflix documentary that's about that award yeah they won an Academy Award about that crazy Russian doping scandal which Chris you and I were talking and we realized that we completely missed it we missed the sunshine so but I am now after hearing about that whole crazy story of how the Russian got like a head of the Russian anti-doping lab who the director had helped kind of fully Russia and had brought with him all of this evidence about how Russia had been doping for decades basically the entire time yes and then it was just much bigger than anybody had ever thought before and now he lives in like 24/7 under 24/7 security because there's the very real threat that he could be killed at any time not the director of the movie but the guy he interviewed who was the head of the yes the Russian head of the Russian lab that doing the yes testing so yeah so in a lot of countries uh there was a guy who presented who's from Tajikistan which is one of those landlocked stands that borders China and also Afghanistan Afghanistan and yeah his story was he was an activist but he was in Moscow and the Tajikistan authorities worked with the Russian authorities to kidnap him they put a bag over his head put him on a private plane and flew him not to its aji coast and withá– then threw him in prison like that's a crazy coordination between dictators you know this kind of Russia talk is making me think that maybe Russia uncensored is not a great idea well also besides the fact that we couldn't possibly handle any more work than we do but yeah and also so we don't know enough about Russia well that's true the bill Browder oh yes totally who created the jinn skia well Magnitsky Magna how do you say that Magnitsky it's Magnitsky Magnitsky act and well the story is that his law firm had this accountant Sergey McNeese to keep Megan oh my god now happening to me it's so hard to say Russian I could normally do fake Russian accents anyway shall I continue so the Icarus director did have a pretty good reputation axe it was so much better than mine yes and I spent years with this Russian guy and so Sergei Magnitsky was a accountant who tried to blow the whistle Russia on the corruption and things going on within the Russian oligarchy and governments and companies and then was assassinated and then Bill Browder decided that and Magnitsky had worked with Bill Browder's law firm so Bill Browder who was a he's a hedge fund guy he's a hedge fund guy he's a finance guy and not a you know not a like a diplomat or a government official like a private citizen who then made it his kind of personal crusade to try to get some kind of justice for Sergey Magnitsky and the idea kind of behind what he did was very interesting because I'm sure as you listening know there's like the u.s. put sanctions on countries and people sometimes criticize sanctions because it just makes the country kind of poor and hurts the people of the country because the dictators just take all of the money and then the people are left to starve the idea behind the Magnitsky Act is it sort of like targeted sanctions on individuals the idea being that a lot of these like well using case of Russia whose rationale Aquagirl Oh Oleg arks well like send their kids to study in universities in Europe or the US or have bank accounts in Switzerland you know do traveling there themselves you know really enjoy it to life and the idea behind this act is that no these these sanctions quote-unquote target these individuals their bank accounts get frozen their kids can't go to colleges it's a way to really directly surgically target these people who are the ones actually committing in many cases crimes against humanity yeah so the US has been one of the countries who's actually passed Magnitsky act after some difficulty it was not an easy thing for Bill Browder to get done I mean I think this is a process that takes years and a lot of tenacity but they the US has two versions one that's kind of Russia specific that's sanctioning specific Russian oligarchs and officials and then the second one that cop has later is called the global magnets gabbed which is the one that basically allows for the US government to call out theoretically officials from anywhere around the world the only problem I have with the global yeah you know okay but for those listeners who don't know where you're going with this please discontinue well you know what I think I think the listeners really know me they'll know where it's doing so I don't even feel I need to complete the thought yeah there we go there we go there we go I thought that we like oh I have to keep a tally of whether we managed to get through any podcast without touching on that topic did we does this count as touching on I never said it but you made people think it in their minds which is arguably worse that's true that's how I like to make really bad puns is I'll just say like all of it except for the the final pun part of it and then make people pawn in their heads and then they they're complicit and they don't like that that's right yeah yeah okay but I remember how we got to go Browder because he's because we were talking about the guy from Tajikistan who had this hole he ended up and attend to because of the whole cord anything during the Russian government and the Tajikistan go bill Browder he went like after the McKinsey Act had been passed in the US and a couple other places he was in a trip in Madrid Spain and one morning knock knock knock on the door hey it's the Spanish police apparently russian interpol had put out a warrant for him so they took him they were gonna take him down to the police station but he had a chance to quickly send out a tweet you know being arrested helped or something and then you know and he like they didn't confiscate his phone so he took a picture of like writing inside the back of the police car so this went viral and and you know by the time he got to the police station the interpol proper had like said and release him yeah i think he said it took about an hour and then he was released but I think it escaped I was I was about to interrupt you good well interesting thing about that is that he's had at least three Interpol notices put on him oh I missed that perfect I think he might have been talking about that and during another panel but the it is kind of funny that you know Interpol is the International police but it can be abused like that and if he hadn't been a you know pretty prominent person who had like a very large public profile that could have gone very differently and that's that's one thing I definitely learned through the Oslo Freedom Forum is that being high profile is the best way to stay safe if you're in any kind of dissident and that's why a lot of authoritarian regimes tell dissidents oh you know if you keep quiet you know such and such or they tell the families of the dissidents if you keep quiet well things well things would go better for your relative but that is as lie nine times out of ten yeah because then they're just not pressured to do any right yeah I mean of course people are scared you know people are trying to make the best decisions they they want to keep their loved one safe but yeah nine out of ten times like being quiet won't get them released yeah yeah the thing about Interpol though also made me think about like the potential risk of having international organizations with an enforcement mechanism because okay so there's another panel where there was some guy in the audience who asked a question oh there was um a panel that discussed how it's difficult sometimes to sue a company for committing some sort of crime against humanity such as involved in slayblade state labor because there's jurisdiction issues right you can't always go after them because the crime was committed in a different jurisdiction and one audience member was like well wouldn't it be great if we just didn't have borders and I I was really thinking about this a lot about how you know if 53 percent of the world lives under authoritarian regimes and you eliminate borders like what be the average of that the average would be authoritarian and if you had a global sort of enforcement mechanism then like other people like everyone is kind of more at risk you you would you wouldn't even have like a safe haven you could flee to look a free country well I mean I think like eliminating borders and having like a world government or two different ideas ya know they are but they're related and I think it's just the Interpol thing kind of made me start thinking about this issue of like if you have an international police with international jurisdiction then you're not safe even in a free country like Spain is but pretty much a free country right don't ask the Catalonians that question you know and that's a fair point but you know essentially it's a it's a relatively free country okay yes certainly compared to most of the world and then the idea that Interpol you know can can go after some guy because an authoritarian regime connected with Interpol can send them with that no it's like that's a very scary thing yeah I think what you kind of ends up happening is either you have like international organizations that have no enforcement mechanism like the UN or you have the risk for abuse is like the Interpol thing that you were talking about yeah I mean the problem is there isn't a perfect solution because you know what would it be ideal I guess is to have some way for three countries to put pressure on more authoritarian countries to treat people better but that's just it's a very hard thing to legislate and the risk of that is is quite high as well so I wouldn't even know how to begin going about setting that up in a way that is functional well what I was thinking about was kind of when you were talking about in the beginning of the Oslo Freedom Forum how they like emphasized China and the first thing that the the head of oz' freedom forum said was doing in a speech was he he basically called China the world's largest tyranny and had on behind him on this giant screen was like a close-up picture of Hanuman square like mouths portrait in Tiananmen Square with that security camera in front of it so you know the idea that in a lot of these cases you are dealing with more than one authoritarian regime together and it's hard to talk about these some of these things as if they are unrelated mm-hmm like if you talk about keeping dictators in power the Chinese Communist Party is involved in many more countries than I think any of us ever thought when we started doing the show right yeah basically we can talk to just about any an activist with özil free informants somewhere they'll be China's involvement but since you've least as you mentioned ten and square I think it's important to remember that this is also the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre and in fact while we were at the Oslo Freedom Forum we met somebody who was there young Ginley correct yes correct I do want to go back to one thing about the the kind of China or the Chinese Communist Party being part of the this larger authoritarianism which is that so to deal with this like you really do have to deal with China you really have to do and that would take a what you were talking about that kind of like a more coordinated response among liberal democracies like nobody can really face off against the Chinese Communist Party or alone ya know and it takes you know it takes a lot of coordination especially because it's so easy for the Communist Party to pick off individual countries one by one which they've been doing in Eastern Europe and trying to do with West Europe and my pickoff you mean invest heavily and get the governments of those countries yeah on China side I mean I mean the problem is that when you're two economies are intertwined if your economy isn't trying to intertwined with China's economy it feels very risky to stand up for human rights and stand against tyranny I mean even Norway the home of the Nobel Peace Prize you know had that whole thing with China not buying salmon after the Nobel Prize was given to be a law that's back in like about 2011 yeah and then it took years for the Norwegian government to repair that relationship yeah they basically kind of crawl back on their hands it needs and be like please take our salmon I thought you were gonna do like I take my wife please joke but what's salmon how would that work show I don't know I mean that sounds a little fishy actually real quick lost in my mind before we go back to Tiananmen Square one thing I found I learned it was very interesting is how was it phrased what did John 'ln how did John Lennon describe the song imagine oh yeah because if someone was playing the song imagine jarring the odds of freedom for ya it's kind of taken as like oh this you know song about peace and love and understanding how did you describe it oh he said basically it's the Communist Manifesto I mean I got this from a Rolling Stone article so I don't believe that they were interviewing John Lennon but it was kind of it was an article that was from 2001 that was called imagine : the anthem of 2001 because I guess it got played a lot after the 9/11 attacks so then Rolling Stone did this article where they were interviewing a lot of musicians famous musicians about what imagine means to them and then pointed out that John Lennon described it as quote virtually the Communist Manifesto even though I'm not particularly communist and do not belong to any movement but because it is sugar-coated it is accepted yeah and really a lot of the ideas in that song or yeah straight out of communism imagine no posessions imagine no religion no heaven no hell and nothing to live or die for and I think like on the one hand like this is basically taking all of the you know beautiful dreams and wishes of communism of like this disc communist utopia that you know people buy into but if you if you really think like if you have nothing to fight for like what is the meaning you know of life yeah like that's an interesting way to phrase the meaning of life but I like I get what you mean that there are there are things in life that you should be passionate and care about that such as defending human rights that you would be willing to fight for those although we and I think the Oslo Freedom Forum generally advocates nonviolent resistance that's that's something I found very fascinating like that there are people in the world who have actually like figured out strategies for how activists can topple authoritarian regimes and specifically they they like they've done the research and they found that nonviolent tactics is the best way to topple an authoritarian regime and lead to a democracy in fact something like only four percent of violent revolutions ever ends up creating democracies what was the nonviolent statistic only six percent no he was higher I I also think it's higher but you guys talk while I find the statistic but at any rate my point is like you know okay or like no possessions it's kind of like I always have anytime at something very nice and then you just you just went back to what you were saying that's what I do I know because we're talking about the song imagine right and and like it is a musically it's a very beautiful song but like okay no possessions like oh you know we shouldn't be so materialistic and that's actually something I agree with but the idea that no one has possessions it's like you have no it's basically like you have no rights and if you have no possessions you it's like you don't have the rights to the fruits of your own labor yeah there's a lot of things that has to happen for no possessions to actually happen like Star Trek starter well no people I think people had possessions it's dark well well you told me today that I had no idea was that there's no money in Star Trek yeah it's the actual politics of Star Trek are very ill-defined but it's definitely like some kind of weird socialism where yeah there's there's no money and people they just work whatever jobs they want to better themselves and theirs so you're saying that Star Trek has universal basic income well I don't think it's even that because they're they have no money to pay for anything like it's really unclear how resources and jobs are distributed somebody has done some kind of deep analysis about this on the internet well and also at the end of the day what Star Trek is about as essentially race Wars for resources are we just gonna ruin all the things for people today like we're just gonna ruin the song imagine yeah if you it's all coffee to communists are everywhere we're gonna ruin the song imagine and then like if you set it to a more I don't know what heavy metal or something it's gonna sound like like pretty hardcore and what oh if you if you instead of like the lovely piano ballad you just yes exactly it has a very different sound right that's so nice anyway but I did find okay and then we're also gonna ruin Star Trek yeah Star Trek I thought you liked Star Trek I do I like John look for car the most British Frenchman in the history of the universe for you no one telling me that he was supposed to be French at the beginning or did I read that somewhere uh I think it's just one of those things that's mentioned cuz his name is jean-luc Picard uh-huh okay thank you always blaze that everything goes wrong Luke he's very British okay so I found the statistic oh that we were talking about five topics go okay nonviolent campaigns are 10 times more likely to end in durable democracies so for violent campaigns that means 4% nonviolent 41% yeah and so this is interesting there are organizations that train people in different nonviolent tactics which speaking of theirs sometimes this idea that non-violence hoes you know frou-frou haha everybody hugs everybody plays gets together and sings imagine but no these are like actual nice thank you yeah like no these are like actual functional tactics to overthrow regimes and its strategic and not just because people don't like guns yeah yeah like good like an example that was given his like in Syria where you know for like seven months or something people had like his nonviolent movement and then at some point decided hey we should form an army and fight Assad and it's like you will you went from attacking Assad where he was weak to attacking him where he was really strong like like China would be a good example like you're the average Chinese person is not going to be able to match the military might of the Chinese Communist Party but well man I think you had an interesting point about this related to America right oh well that only 4% of violent resistance movements lead to democracies and that 4% is probably comprised largely of the United States I mean we did fight a violent revolution against the British and succeed this is this is the basis of American exceptionalism which which I'm not saying I agree with but in this particular case you know there is a nonzero percentage of the time that things that don't normally work and work right and I think but there's a lot of factors like the American Revolution did not succeed because of its violence it succeeded for a variety of factors the you know there was assistance from the French and there was the British had their own you know issues they were dealing with all the gay men and also yeah and also the British rulers were were on another continent Shelley okay I thought you were talking about what's the Scott it's one movie Braveheart so here's Guide to the galaxy no I like I thought you were talking about Braveheart and he live her hated all kind and so I was very confused so he was liberated of his insides what he's talking about very partly Braveheart I thought he got decapitated I'm pretty it was much more cursing than that for you oh yeah I always had guts not by the end so in your yeah so yes I'm mayor America is an exception to that but it's it's not a good lesson to learn and also times are different now in the sense of if you have a large number of peaceful protesters in 2019 that are mowed down by armed troops you know the social media impact of this the degree to which the rest of the world is going to come together and say you know that this was wrong we support the nonviolent resistance movement you know it's essentially is it is a thing that will help the resistance movements and this actually kind of ties into the how strategic this needs to be because like there was there was speech given by Sir Jay Popovich sir it's hard to pronounce his name because it it's like s are dja1 balanced and it's no vowels but yeah so you use an example of like the umbrella movement an example of something that was not super strategic like they had a big show of force like getting on to the streets peaceful protests but they had no plan for what happens at the communist party ignores you then your movement just kind of Peters out and you don't have anywhere to go I think it was also talking about how occupation is one of the worst yeah tactics because it drains you you can't go anywhere from it he also mentioned how difficult it is for even successful nonviolent movements a lot of them fall apart after they win I do think that was a good example of that yeah I think that was an interesting one of the most interesting panels we went to it was like 10 minutes long on why movements fail because I had no idea that most movements fail in the victory stage right I mean like you see what's happening Venezuela and there's now this kind of you know most democracies are supporting the opposition leader who and why doe but there's a question is even if he's able to out Nicolas Maduro will who enjoyed those national assembly be able to form a functioning government and solve the enormous problems that the people there face in a short enough period of time that they will continue to get the support that allows them to endure if they don't do that then there could easily be a coup from the maderos people or some sort of deep state yeah well because it's also easy for like a bunch of people to unite against a common enemy once that common enemy it's gone well then you people aren't united and they have all these different viewpoints different desires different ways to build the government and that's where things go it's really like Star Wars you had the Rebel Alliance fighting the Empire and once they win well then they form a kind of non-functional New Republic that is divided and then first order comes along and blows up a few planets and the whole thing falls apart we're talking about the most recent movies now yeah well well if you look like 6 I'm sorry so 7 takes place like what 30 years after so sexing like that and like in that time you see that you know the Rebel Alliance like they they took down you know Darth Vader and Papa teen but they're like okay I thought that just meant that they hadn't like managed to win everywhere that there was still I guess in a way there was still like reach but it's I think there's still like a lot of it's like that the New Republic didn't actually function super well wait is Star Wars just like political science in space yeah oh my gosh yes there's like history books about it don't you know about the infinity Wars or something different the hyperspace I haven't watched it yet so don't say anything about also I have a feeling that there's gonna be at least one person who listens to this who's upset because in one single podcast we're mixing Star Trek and Star Wars now you can talk about them in the same pod yes that's fine especially when you point out that the Star Wars is just so much better actually that's not my opinion necessarily I'm just gonna say hey I thought you liked Star Trek yeah this is the part of the of the discussion that we don't want to get into well it means it'll be the most contentious maybe not reverse to come to much conflict well guys like I'm all for calling out authoritarian regimes but this is an issue I do not want in Star Trek is Star Wars from the perspective of the Empire there we have it and the Empire is socialist fYI I feel like you're slowly talking yourself out of liking star cast it's some sort of like National Socialist Party it basically is in a cutscene of a new hope like there is a whole discussion about how like the Empire is nationalizing a bunch of industry wait now you switch to Star Wars I can switch to Star Wars I was talking about Star Trek oh you did right because start and Star Trek it's it's like this you know National Socialist what copyright I like are you calling a Star Trek Nazis I mean like I'd say the Empire is much closer to the Nazis than yes at least how we're presented with the Federation however the Federation still is going to like random planets and killing off the alien species right they're directive like oh you're not supposed to do that and they're always violating that every episode is about the only to a planning like well should we follow the prime directive no in this instance let's not but let's not do this again don't tell honey and then Captain Kirk kisses an alien woman well I'm now thinking mainly in else generation yeah it's just like a super-powered military organization that like has more firepower than anyone else it goes around and forces their will but they also think they're the good guys oh yeah know him Darth Vader probably thought he was the good guy well maybe not since he's like mowed down all those children with his light sword that's what it's called a light sword that doesn't agree angry comments I think Lucas George Lucas calls it like a light sword like he gets it wrong Wow okay yeah so you know if that doesn't mean that people can't be mad at somebody just because they created the thing in the first place that happens all the time I mean people were mad at George Lucas like for all the things he did to Star Wars I'm trying to say that I wish he had made the new trilogy I think he had a good idea for it and I'm sorry he didn't get to make it do I want to know what it is uh maybe I mean like basically he was gonna double down on the MIDI chlorine or midi-chlorian idea that like the force is like created by like all these microscopic beings that are kind of manipulating the whole galaxy so we're gonna zoom in to the person's body and yeah it's gonna be the like the conflict between hey medic Lauren well I don't know how he would have played out but yeah he said he was gonna take it to the microscopic level I'm like it raises a lot of interesting questions like if everything is being manipulated by like these microscopic entities like what does that mean for everything we've seen so far what what what is the creation of the chosen one what is the fall of Darth Vader was that me was his fall being manipulated by like these these horrible entities that we have no control over when I fight these entities what I'm hearing is Star Wars osmosis jones exactly I'm kind of glad he took the four billion dollars from Disney oh oh yeah because the new trilogies are so much more interesting than microscopic battles these little microscopic things have light swords well I don't know and that's that's the interesting thing how do you fight an enemy that is microscopic how do you fight the enemy within yeah oh my god no it's a philosophical message Star Wars always was philosophical the hero's journey show oh right those don't smother space monks space monkey space wizards their space wizards who happened to just be a like a like a chaste religious order something like that I remember what's-his-face we played obi-wan in the original truly Sir Alec Guinness or something I like like an interview like I always wanted to play a wizard he played he just played it as a wizard which is basically what they are little space wizards that seems to be putting a nicer spin on him you know nice to spend then what then being like I don't want to pay to play your space wizard because he was a very accomplished well it's like Patrick Stewart playing jean-luc Picard most next generation episodes are very bad like I Ivan rewatching it and most of them are terrible so out of like a season of like 24 episodes how many are good well the first couple of seasons are pretty rough I'm still working my way through so maybe like the later seasons they kind of get more but like one of the first episodes of next generation is they go to a planet of black people who have this weird tribal culture and the king of this planet becomes infatuated with like the white security lady on the enterprise and so he wants to have his current wife fight her to the death and the winner will get to be his Queen okay it's just off apparently the guy who wrote that script eventually got fired for being like a big racist jerk but like this is like one of the first episodes it's amazing his show survived if Twitter had existed back then it probably would have been canceled Wow you know eventually the Bork show up and then it's good but the thing is Patrick Stewart he's always giving a like a hundred and ten percent and today everything even in like the stupidest things like where for some reason he's like playing in 1940 style film noir detective I mean we can't really criticize his Star Trek for doing that being what we did in Australia hey we can because no one watched that episode so nobody knows that exists what weird noir thing oh yeah in Chinatown forget it it's giant yeah somebody was telling me at the Oslo Freedom Forum that like the forget it it's Chinatown thing he just it's like forget it it's Chinatown it's just like about everything the Communist Party does that cause like it's like forget it it's China like you know yeah it's Chinatown nothing the world's chaos you can know where I'm reasonably mm-hmm imagine so what were we talking about before we got sidetracked Tiananmen Square yes oh so what's the 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre whereas encyclopedia britannica now calls it the Tiananmen Square incident does it yeah didn't you read the script Shelly well that's not a script for this podcast but this is China unscripted but we did an episode oh I wasn't there you weren't there oh yeah you didn't watch it when you were in East Germany and then we weren't editing scripts yeah so depending on if this podcast actually comes out in June 4th which is the plan yesterday we will have released and interview on China uncensored with Joe Fung shooey survivor of the Tiananmen Square massacre he's a student leader and in that episode we make the point that kind of the West has kind of stopped talking about the Tiananmen Square massacre in the same way and yes Shelley the Encyclopedia Britannica now no longer calls it the Tiananmen Square massacre they call it the Tiananmen Square incident because it's just an incident really right just an incident some things happen to some people who said that some things happen it was a thing were some things oh no this is a ilhara Oman thing when she commented on oh man I don't know let's not go there or not go there backing up I also don't know what this is about so but look it's just symptomatic of how a lot of Western companies they don't want to get political and in order to avoid getting political but they had political but cool we should definitely release a cover album this song imagine hard rock version well I think that was like daddy metal use what Freddy LEM taught me oh well there you go you can maybe convince Denise Howe and Freddy limb to let you join the monster oh my gosh with my koi that's that is not my dream so my less interesting point was about how sometimes Western companies in an effort to avoid politics have to make a political decision which is like do we reframe something the way the Communist Party wants or do we stand up for what is more truthful or accurate and then face major political consequences which is basically let so many airlines have done by changing Taiwan on their flight destinations to you know whether it's it's Taipei or you know Taiwan come at China or whatever it is that they used to solve the that problem so it's kind of like the book they're put in a difficult position which I understand but the problem is that they're all giving in to this yeah but the Encyclopedia Brittanica coming on well they're probably getting other books printed in China so I think also there's that whole thing about you know there are Kahneman Square conspiracy theories led by the Chinese Communist Party where I think I stumbled upon this last week where I was looking up something about Tiananmen Square and found this socialist newspaper that had an article from a few years ago where they were debunking the Tiananmen Square so-called massacre where it basically took the whole oh you know there was never a tank's that went in like that was all faked and it was really students that who lynched these unarmed soldiers like that whole right and then there's the other side of that which is that you showed me that thing that should have state after that the tank man video in photos came out state-run media tried to flip that by saying look at how much restraint our soldiers showed in this video proves it that our soldiers exercised restraint yes because look we didn't run over this one guy yeah I mean I think also ignore fountain yeah well I think also tank man gets misinterpreted sometimes because it's very powerful image but the context is that it happened on June 5th not June 4th after most of the killings the tanks were actually rolling out of the square where they had already massacring people you know which from a certain point of view makes that guy all the braver cuz like this is not like I'm going to challenge you it's like oh I've already seen these tanks crush lots of people but I'm Sam from yeah so that that does make his act much more and if you've seen the kind of like zoomed out version because there is a one famous photo that always gets used but there have been other photos that show like it's not just like three tanks it's like 20 tanks yeah it's like a highway full of tanks so yeah it does make his individual thing braver but at the same time it can be easily misinterpreted as well like they didn't run him over or you know I guess actually it's interesting because Tiananmen the teams where Massacre happened because there was for a month protests in Tiananmen and actually around the country but the biggest was in Beijing of you know people calling for reforms in China they were not calling for an end to the economy's party which is sometimes I think yeah sometimes but gets a little confused because people wonder remember that like or like generally kind of know that they were calling for democracy but it was more like political reform they wanted them you look like a farm yeah and they wanted transparency for the finances of top officials as a way to to keep corruption at bay and those those are the two main things there are other things they wanted to but yeah again nobody was calling for an end to the CCP which you know of course now in 2019 there are a lot of dissidents and activists who are saying you know look we've tried for so long and the Communist Party has not reformed and you know if you look at the surveillance that they're using or what they're doing in Xin Zhong or what they're doing to Falun Gong still these are just like you're never gonna be able to fix these issues with the CCP in power and so like I was I was in an uber last week and the driver was Chinese and I was chatting with him and you know I asked like why did you come to the United States seems like clean air clean food clean water and we're kind of joking around and you know I asked him what he thought of you know the Chinese Communist Party and he's like Oh nobody likes the Chinese Communist Party anymore well you can say that because he's in America yeah he's just like the Lao by Singh but they don't the common people they don't like the party they think it's really corrupt and so I just even five years ago like you just wouldn't have overseas Chinese people even daring to say that but no I don't know if that's try I think that that gradually the I mean I've heard the word simple inside in China have been saying that for years now okay so maybe it's been longer than I think but but you're almost ago there was not a movement a large movement to end the Communist Party and I think that is gradually changing there was just more and more people who are willing to say I the whole thing needs to go well anyways the point I was kind of getting at is the to these Tiananmen Square protests were one of the things brought up at the odds of Freedom Forum as an example of a movement that failed yes and it was interesting to look at it from that angle and the umbrella movement also was brought up like you said so but like you know if you look at them as you know ways to learn from failures yeah yeah the I think I have mixed feelings about what usually happens around these anniversaries like the 25th anniversary of the twenty annemun Square massacre or the this year's the 30th anniversary that they'll be like suddenly for a week or so there'll be a lot of attention paid to it in the news like they'll be like articles written by people who were there or opinion pieces about why it's important and I've read some episodes on China uncensored you know like I've read some great ones like Perry link famous China scholar wrote one about the Tiananmen Square massacre and it was very moving and he like made a great case for why it needs to be called the taman square massacre so that one was definitely worth a read and there was an interesting New York Times article by Chris Buckley who talked about this woman her name is Jiang Ling who she was a military reporter during the tantaran square protests and so she kind of had some first-hand knowledge and had seen documentation that showed that the revolt of the military against the orders sent down by Deng Xiaoping and the Central Military Commission when they told them to go in and crush the students was much more than had previously been known and she had military did not want know there were like a lot of the military leaders did not want to and they tried to get out of it all sorts of different ways and that like their if they had even like thought about like publishing a letter in response in the People's Daily about how they didn't think it was good idea to throw the martial art to go in and like the People's Daily at the time was ignoring the propaganda ban to not you know publish stories about the protests there was there's a lot more press freedom in the eighties than there is now yeah definitely but like there was this moment where the military what didn't want to do it was yeah yeah and the propaganda department didn't want it like so I think this is what they were talking about in the Y who have been straight thing where like there was a strategic moment that the students could have somehow you know gotten the military on their side and then like that passed and then they lost the offensive base yeah I think what it was specifically was like there was a period where there could be some negotiation and the protesters would have had to give up some of what they wanted but they didn't want to do that so you know and that that's kind of example of like you know when you are organizing when you're trying to effect regime change you do need to be willing to you can't get everything necessary it's like any kind of deal in negotiation we have to sometimes well not necessarily that they were thinking about regime change in that way at that time but as a lesson for future yeah be willing to negotiate yeah and so was it was interesting to kind of like take a look back at these things where like now like people and this woman had like sat on the story for 30 years and then she decided to leave China and she was finally gonna say it and it was published in the New York Times but like there will be this kind of you know light and attention on this for a week and then we'll go back to like just the way things are and new investment opportunities in China yeah although I think I think that situation is changing a little bit but like in terms of like these these anniversaries of these human rights violations that like there's a little bit of attention we're gonna look back you get maybe some updates on where what happened to people now like you know the tanum and mothers are still being put under house arrest every year around this time or but then like you know the attention is gonna go elsewhere mm-hmm I think all this phrase is an interesting question about like what does the future of China hold now something they definitely came up over the house of Freedom Forum like well we were specifically talking to young generally who as I mentioned earlier he was he was there during the tienen protests and then he was later went back to China he was basically after the Tiananmen protests he left and was banned from going back and then he went back in 2002 to try to help like this labor movement that was happening and then was in prison for five years but he's he's the head of the citizen power initiatives and he's like a Washington dc-based Chinese activist who's you know really China organized and kind of bring different groups together just to you know stand up against the authoritarian hasn't been China well I was drunk about how it's kind of like the the Chinese Avengers in a certain way because like he's interested in bringing together all of the you know dissident groups whether it's like the Christians and Falun Gong leaguers and democracy activists like all these different disparate groups to kind of try to and that's one thing that's pretty hard for I think dissidents to do is to like work together cuz everybody has their own kind of cause right but there is a commonality to it and it takes it takes real leadership to do that but I you know the next step I think is to start to really paint a picture of a future in China without the CCP because there's been so much brainwashing over the last 70 years in China of like oh you know the Communist Party is your mother or there's you know there is no new China without the Chinese Communist Party catchy song and it is a catchy song and it's the power of songs you know that song imagine you start to believe in second imagine you start to imagine that what's in the song is just how it is like the Communist Party is your mother not that one no there's a song that has that isn't as a lyric so so I mean since we're talking about Star Wars I'm just imagining the scene or cheating thing is like dissidents I am your mother and then he cuts off their hand happen before the hand gets cut off first oh that's true yes yes and but it's the pain of of hearing about his father that's more painful no yeah yeah that's impossible [Laughter] yeah that's my whitey marking okay mark em was the Joker or no Skywalker okay okay um yeah so I mean I think the time has come that that people need to start painting a picture of what a china could look like without the Chinese Communist Party and kind of break through the brainwashing of the only China is the China under the Communist Party but you know if you just look at that objectively that is historically untrue because historically over the last they say 5000 years of continuous civilization but at least among the the documented dynasties over the last two and a half thousand years like clearly there have been many dynasties before the Communist before the Communist Party but wait I thought the Communist Party belonged to China since ancient times no China is below new economies party since oh okay yeah yeah but I don't know if you can say 5000 years of continuous civilizations I mean the Ching dynasty with those Manchu barbarians can call of Acts well we you know sometimes people talk about oh the Manchus were foreigners but but the Communist Party like based on Marxism and Leninism like that's a very foreign thing to be ruling China well you know it's a like it's it's the most absurd claim that the Communist Party is like a Chinese thing I mean as Buddhism had a hard time making it in China at the beginning oh yeah foreign religion yeah yeah I know the Communist Party is is a it's a foreign cult that has this taken over it's very propagandistic when you say it like that I mean imagine well no but there are like a commis party is kind of like an evil cult like if you think about it they force you to believe their thing they take your money if you don't believe in their thing they will punish you they they make it very difficult for people to leave alright like I mean in a lot of ways it is very much like a cult sounds like my ex-wife holy Nathan take my wife leave I don't know why you love this kind of like vaudeville comedy Chris was born in the wrong time yeah I do think now that Chris and I have stopped stepping all over your point yeah stop interrupting me show ha ha that it is interesting because we did have that conversation with young Tenley about the future of China and what struck me is that I have so rarely had that conversation with people and even for me focusing on China for so long but kind of being in the weeds of it and reporting about what's happening in China now or like you just don't really think about what's going to happen in a certain way next yeah I mean there's ailment doctor like you know the economies party collapsing that's been added like even economies parties I'm talking about comes party Colossus they've been talking about why the Soviet Union was wrong and they're never gonna be like the Soviet Union yeah but no I mean like who Jintao like in 2011 it was like corruption is such a serious issue it could bring the collapse of the gun this party what did he know maybe more than anyone suspects but I think it is interesting because a lot of the other issues that came up during the Oslo Freedom Forum like you know countries like in Venezuela or Nicaragua or where or Cameroon or whatever where there are kind of more large-scale nonviolent protests going on that's not happening in China yeah so in a sense that makes the future of China like a CCP less future of China feel very far away yeah like what would come next there's gonna be democracy is it gonna be something else or like what is gingy I'm gonna do oh like what is it even worth like there's no it looks like it's getting worse and worse the surveillance the monitoring the clamp down on civil society like what hope is there for any kind of nonviolent protest you know of these things it just feels like oh well it's it's far away from any of that I mean the Communist Party is not just quashing descent but they want to create a society where there is no dissent in the first place yes like the whole you know security thing or like that security means the absence of threat imagine all the people living in harmony I don't yeah like insane junk that's what we're all living harmoniously in reeducation camps well they're also being bred out of existence yeah and and you know that without getting too much into this Jean Jean thing like if you look at the future of China there is this idea that I think is being propagated by the Communist Party which is if there is no Communist Party a Chinese society will be total chaos and that doesn't necessarily follow and then I'm not a scholar of you know the Chinese government and how that's structured but if the idea that that chaos and violence is a necessary or is an automatic result of getting rid of the CCP like that in itself is propaganda that's meant to make people think oh well maybe I don't like the Chinese Communist Party but it would be worse without them yeah like the better the devil you know right yeah but I mean that's that's not necessarily how it plays out in countries after there's regime change and so you know we should be open-minded about the possibilities of this and it's obviously not for someone like me to figure out what the future of China is gonna be it's worth China yeah it's for China for the people of China actually Joe Fung Wah had a really interesting phrase in the interview did with him Chris where he talked about China's fight against communism and would you use the word China he meant something different than what a lot of people mean it's like he I guess meant the Chinese people the spirit of China the country of China fighting up a you know fighting against getting rid of the sort of foreign spectre of communism that has come in and taken over you know China's fight against communism could be a good title for this podcast I think so I think we're gonna pay for a book or a song that's more like a 70's style protestors imagine yeah okay okay give me the wrap-it-up sign and I was gonna sing this version of imagine oh we don't have time for that we don't have time right well thanks for listening thank you for listening yeah I just said that Matt thanks for listening oh that sounded a little passive-aggressive no it was actively aggressive what was unclear about that we've been in Aza too long I mean yes I think we need some sleep yeah and barbeque so yeah thank you for listening if you haven't been thanked enough for listening let me thank you for listening again and our next podcast just as a reminder oh yeah our next podcast is going to be with BBC dad himself Robert Kelley about the North and South Korea and China and it's fascinating and a lot more on topic than this one this is somewhat more on topic yeah China this was on topic Chinese fight against communism all right well thank you for listening thank you for listening you're supposed to say your name and then sign out yeah I know I'm giving you two the opportunity to also thank our wonderful audience can we really know ever thank our audience enough that's a good point we can't really I mean just meeting the fans at the at the fan meetup yeah yeah we have like 30 people at the Oslo fan meetup which as you pointed out was the most fans per capita they stun that the population size if the country were visiting I'm pretty sure that was you that point that out Matt I don't even remember who pointed that out but at any rate yeah so it was great to meet all the fans and for everyone listening thank you for listening yes thank you for listening thank you they were all very sweet and polite the Intel they were moving yeah but so polite that it almost seemed like they were too polite to ask questions which I feel like is it is the first that's true that's true but I mean you know I thank them for coming almost as much as I think you for listening you know I mean yeah okay Matt giving me the wrap it up so I was gonna you know compliment our audience a little bit more of it oh please no no please Joey oh well I was just gonna say when one of the fans came up and you know was shaking my hand and told me that you know we're fighting the good fight and you know touching people's hearts and that was really really nice to hear this is nice to hear that and he wasn't even like when you feel down think about that I was like you people are too nice yeah very nice so so we can think about that okay Wow now I'm coming from a different place when I say thank you for listening once again I'm Chris Chappell I Roselli job and I'm mekinese does thank you for listening you




Comments
  1. Sounds like you guys were exhausted when you taped this. Jet lag and working too hard. Your efforts are appreciated far more than you know.

  2. There's been an episode on the T.S. Massacre every year on China Uncensored. Also, I can't speak for anyone, but I've watched the film noir episode twice, maybe even thrice. Quite frankly, only the panel discussion video is the only one done in Australia/New Zealand that I haven't rewatched.

    Re: Star Trek: Of course it's Socialist. It promotes Collectivism ie the philosophical foundation of Socialism.

  3. Anyone here on Quora forum? recently there have been Mass infiltration of Chinese netizens who are advancing ccp's agenda. They claim that the Tiananmen Square is the work of the CIA, disrupting their social harmony. How much that is true is to be debated, but I will take my chances and call it misinformation and total BS.

  4. Chris, kinda off topic but why the heck do you not come with Shelly to Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby in Canada ? 😭😭

    You went to Norway but not Canada ? 😢

  5. Looks like Venezuela might just defeat their socialist style of government, lets hope China's can beat their communist style of government.

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